±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 673
Total: 673
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Home
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: News Archive
14: Photo Gallery
15: News Archive
16: Photo Gallery
17: Community Forums
18: Downloads
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Home
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Home
30: Photo Gallery
31: Photo Gallery
32: News
33: Photo Gallery
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Downloads
49: Photo Gallery
50: Home
51: Photo Gallery
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Member Screenshots
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Photo Gallery
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: News Archive
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Member Screenshots
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Member Screenshots
87: Member Screenshots
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Photo Gallery
91: Community Forums
92: Home
93: Member Screenshots
94: Community Forums
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Photo Gallery
98: Member Screenshots
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Photo Gallery
106: Community Forums
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: News Archive
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Home
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Member Screenshots
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Photo Gallery
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Member Screenshots
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Photo Gallery
137: Photo Gallery
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Member Screenshots
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: News Archive
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Statistics
164: Community Forums
165: Downloads
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Community Forums
172: Home
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Community Forums
181: Photo Gallery
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Home
188: Member Screenshots
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Downloads
192: Community Forums
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Photo Gallery
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Downloads
205: Home
206: Member Screenshots
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Home
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Photo Gallery
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Statistics
227: Home
228: Photo Gallery
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Downloads
234: Photo Gallery
235: Home
236: Member Screenshots
237: Home
238: Downloads
239: Home
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Photo Gallery
244: Community Forums
245: Photo Gallery
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Downloads
252: Community Forums
253: Photo Gallery
254: Downloads
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Home
261: Community Forums
262: Home
263: Home
264: Photo Gallery
265: Photo Gallery
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Member Screenshots
269: Home
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Treasury
276: News Archive
277: Member Screenshots
278: Community Forums
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Photo Gallery
282: Downloads
283: Community Forums
284: Home
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Statistics
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Home
293: Downloads
294: Photo Gallery
295: Home
296: Member Screenshots
297: Community Forums
298: Home
299: Photo Gallery
300: Photo Gallery
301: News
302: Community Forums
303: Member Screenshots
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: Community Forums
307: Photo Gallery
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Member Screenshots
314: Community Forums
315: News
316: Home
317: Community Forums
318: Home
319: Community Forums
320: News Archive
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Downloads
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Home
328: Community Forums
329: Downloads
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Downloads
333: Home
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Downloads
339: Downloads
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Photo Gallery
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Downloads
347: Community Forums
348: Photo Gallery
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Member Screenshots
352: Member Screenshots
353: Community Forums
354: Photo Gallery
355: Home
356: Home
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Downloads
362: Downloads
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Home
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Photo Gallery
369: Community Forums
370: Member Screenshots
371: Community Forums
372: Photo Gallery
373: Member Screenshots
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Home
377: Home
378: Member Screenshots
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Photo Gallery
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Photo Gallery
385: Community Forums
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Photo Gallery
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Downloads
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Home
395: Photo Gallery
396: Home
397: Home
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Community Forums
402: Photo Gallery
403: Statistics
404: News Archive
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Home
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Home
415: News Archive
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Photo Gallery
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Photo Gallery
430: Photo Gallery
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: Community Forums
435: Member Screenshots
436: Photo Gallery
437: Statistics
438: Home
439: Member Screenshots
440: News Archive
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Photo Gallery
448: Community Forums
449: Photo Gallery
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Member Screenshots
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Home
460: Downloads
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Photo Gallery
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Photo Gallery
467: Home
468: Member Screenshots
469: Community Forums
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Photo Gallery
474: Member Screenshots
475: Member Screenshots
476: Photo Gallery
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: News Archive
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Member Screenshots
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Community Forums
497: Photo Gallery
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Member Screenshots
503: Home
504: Community Forums
505: Downloads
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Photo Gallery
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Photo Gallery
517: Community Forums
518: Member Screenshots
519: Home
520: Community Forums
521: Home
522: Community Forums
523: Home
524: Home
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Member Screenshots
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: News Archive
531: Photo Gallery
532: Member Screenshots
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Home
536: Community Forums
537: Home
538: Community Forums
539: Home
540: Community Forums
541: Home
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Downloads
545: Community Forums
546: Downloads
547: Community Forums
548: Statistics
549: Community Forums
550: Home
551: News Archive
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Home
558: News Archive
559: Home
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Member Screenshots
563: Community Forums
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Your Account
568: Home
569: Community Forums
570: News Archive
571: Community Forums
572: Downloads
573: Member Screenshots
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Member Screenshots
579: Downloads
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: News Archive
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Photo Gallery
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Photo Gallery
589: Photo Gallery
590: Home
591: Community Forums
592: News Archive
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Home
597: Your Account
598: Community Forums
599: Home
600: Community Forums
601: Home
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Member Screenshots
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Home
612: Home
613: Photo Gallery
614: Community Forums
615: Home
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Photo Gallery
621: Member Screenshots
622: Home
623: Home
624: Community Forums
625: Home
626: Photo Gallery
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Your Account
630: Member Screenshots
631: Home
632: Home
633: Home
634: Home
635: Photo Gallery
636: Community Forums
637: Home
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Downloads
641: Home
642: Community Forums
643: Photo Gallery
644: Home
645: Community Forums
646: Downloads
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Home
652: Home
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Photo Gallery
656: Home
657: Photo Gallery
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Home
661: Photo Gallery
662: Home
663: Community Forums
664: Downloads
665: Home
666: Community Forums
667: Photo Gallery
668: Community Forums
669: Downloads
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
L.Delsing
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 10, 2006
Posts: 960

PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:51 pm
Post subject: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

Located at the airborne museum in Hotel Hartenstein is the following Sherman;

N51 59.257 E005 49.933
Serial 5964 (rear/right tow lug), see picture



Back to top
View user's profile
recceboy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Edmonton,Alberta
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:30 pm
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.

Anthony
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:33 pm
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- recceboy
The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.


Sorry, it did not. Sherman V s/n 5964 T288627 "Argyll Roger" was only painted to resemble Sherman VC "Argyle" of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, but obviously it is not the very same tank. In 1945 "Argyll Roger" was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein and research into where it came from originally has drawn blanks. It's current history as presented by the museum is a falsification.

HTH,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
recceboy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Edmonton,Alberta
PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:29 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra
- recceboy
The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.


Sorry, it did not. Sherman V s/n 5964 T288627 "Argyll Roger" was only painted to resemble Sherman VC "Argyle" of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, but obviously it is not the very same tank. In 1945 "Argyll Roger" was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein and research into where it came from originally has drawn blanks. It's current history as presented by the museum is a falsification.

HTH,
Hanno


Well then, my ole proud Regiments history is wrong then ? It states that is was found in a "dump" supply area and after some research was found to belong to the Strathcona's, thus the reason why the monument was placed infront of the M4A4 displaying the unit's cap badge.
If there is new info to say that it never served with them ,we should let them know with confirmation.

So, this is a mystery then, with two stories, now which is correct ?
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:11 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- recceboy
Well then, my ole proud Regiments history is wrong then ? It states that is was found in a "dump" supply area and after some research was found to belong to the Strathcona's, thus the reason why the monument was placed infront of the M4A4 displaying the unit's cap badge.
If there is new info to say that it never served with them ,we should let them know with confirmation.

So, this is a mystery then, with two stories, now which is correct ?


Anthony,

I am not sure what is written in your Regimental history, but let me try to brief you on what we do know about "Argyll Roger".

Shortly after the liberation in 1945, a Sherman V (M4A4) was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein. A period picture shows the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger" painted on the hull side. Some years later, "Argyll Roger" was moved to Doorwerth Castle where the museum was housed. The Sherman was moved to Hotel Hartenstein when the Airborne museum moved there.

In the mid-1980s we researched the question: where did "Argyll Roger" come from? Options were:
1) It was captured by the German Army in September 1944 and left behind in April 1945.
2) It was left there by an Allied unit which liberated Oosterbeek.
3) It was brought there for the making of a movie on Market Garden shortly after WW2. We know a number of tanks and vehicles were brought to Oosterbeek, but we are not sure it included a Sherman tank.
4) For some reason it was brought to Oosterbeek from the Deelen dump, a huge storage area for Commonwealth vehicles.

Option 1) was the most obvious, but we could not find any units which reported a loss of a Sherman V and leaving it there. However, your unit was among the ones which liberated Oosterbeek, and they did have a Sherman named “Argyle”. Sounds like it, doesn’t it? But this tank was not reported lost and it was a Sherman VC Firefly. It was very tempting to stick this identity to "Argyll Roger", and this is what the museum did. They explained the fact that their tank is a regular 75-mm Sherman and not a 17-pdr Firefly by the given that “guns can be easily swapped on Shermans”. However, there is no operational explanation to do so, and IF a Firefly was converted back into a 75-mm gun tank, there would be clear indications this happened. "Argyll Roger" has no signs of having ever been converted into a Firefly and/or back.
So, although this was a tempting solution to fill the gap of a missing history and have he benefit of a Regiment adopting it for restauration, repainting etc. (just like the Grizzly at Groesbeek!), the only right conclusion is that these two tanks are not the same.

Frustrating fact is the provenance of "Argyll Roger" remains an enigma to this day.

I am always willing to discuss further.

Hope this helps,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
recceboy
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 22, 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Edmonton,Alberta
PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:59 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

Hanno

Very interesting, well this is a true enigma then.Thank you for the possibilites with this sherman.

Cheers

Anthony
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 8:54 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra
Shortly after the liberation in 1945, a Sherman V (M4A4) was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein. A period picture shows the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger" painted on the hull side.


Here is an early post-war picture of Argyll Roger while standing on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein, courtesy of Maurice D.

Is there anyone who could tell me who or what "Argyll Roger" is or was?

Regards,
Hanno
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:17 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra

Some years later, "Argyll Roger" was moved to Doorwerth Castle where the museum was housed.


Attached is a picture postcard of ca. 1962, provided by a friend, showing Argyll Roger on display at Doorwerth Castle.
Back to top
View user's profile
Hanno_Spoelstra
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jun 04, 2006
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 8:42 am
Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra
Here is an early post-war picture of Argyll Roger while standing on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein


Here's another picture of Argyll Roger in the same location. Source: www.geldersarchief.nl, courtesy of Marco H.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum