Com-Central.net

Michel_Krauss

- Pzkpfw-e

This may be the FT17 in Dutch service.
volkskrant.nl/static/F...278502.jpg
www.volkskrant.nl/vk/n...erne.dhtml

www.twenot-forums.nl/v...mp;t=22535

libertypark.nl/images/...ten/15.jpg

Several of it on trials, August 1927 on this forum.
forum.fok.nl/topic/1633563/1/999

There been some discussion at various Dutch sites about the remaining FT17's in the Netherlands
Of both vehicles it's not clear where they came from.

The only thing allmost everybody agrees about is that they are not the 2 FT17 that where ordered before WW2.
Because they where both fitted with canon, 1 with a 37mm and the other a 47mm.

Most likely they are French FT17 and transported to the Netherlands during WW2 for security operations, like guarding of important locations like airfields and such.

It's not clear what has happended to the 2 pre-war Dutch FT17

Michel

Michel_Krauss

- TrevorLarkum

I wonder why I didn't see these vehicles when I visited - were they not on display, or did I just miss them (I didn't manage to visit every part of the museum)?
Also, Michel, your Netherlands Register lists an M4A1 as a monument in the museum park - can you tell me more and provide photos?

The Crusader Gun tractor has moved to the basement, because they are planning to restore it (don't know if it's only a paint job or major overhaul)
So you did not miss it, because it's not open for public Wink

Concerning the FT17, it easy to miss especialy if you only have a limited amount of time
It's located in a dead-end corner behind the section where the artillery is displayed, to make it worse it's hidden behind some big Soviet trucks

Concerning the the Sherman M4A1, it's not located inside the museum park.
To make it more confussing, the Sherman not yet on display

In front of the museum park there is a town square with a WW2 monument for the 7th US Armour Div

A group of volunteers collected a M4A1E9 from a Dutch military shooting range and are restoring this to look like a WW2 M4A1

More can be found ith the Netherlands AFV register thread
www.com-central.net/in...;start=240

There is also a link to the site of the group who are restoring the tank.
The site is updated at a regular basis

I think they are planning to have it on display at the end of september

Michel

TrevorLarkum

Pzkpfw-e and Michel - thanks for the links on the Dutch Renault FTs. I agree it looks like the Overloon isn't one, having looked into it further I have updated the text on its profile page as follows:

"It has been suggested that it is an original Dutch Renault FT, however it does not appear to match contemporary photographs in a number of ways, in particular it has its manufacturer’s plate on the left track frame (the same side as the lifting jack) whereas the Dutch vehicles had it on the right track frame (the same side as the exhaust)."

This is the first time I've noticed this anomaly, an FT with the data plate on the 'wrong' side - can anyone comment? I wonder whether this signifies a different manufacturer, i.e. not Renault at Billancourt.

- Michel_Krauss

The Crusader Gun tractor has moved to the basement, because they are planning to restore it (don't know if it's only a paint job or major overhaul)
So you did not miss it, because it's not open for public :wink:

Concerning the FT17, it easy to miss especialy if you only have a limited amount of time
It's located in a dead-end corner behind the section where the artillery is displayed, to make it worse it's hidden behind some big Soviet trucks

Thank you, that explains it!

- Michel_Krauss

Concerning the the Sherman M4A1, it's not located inside the museum park.
To make it more confussing, the Sherman not yet on display

In front of the museum park there is a town square with a WW2 monument for the 7th US Armour Div

A group of volunteers collected a M4A1E9 from a Dutch military shooting range and are restoring this to look like a WW2 M4A1

More can be found ith the Netherlands AFV register thread
www.com-central.net/in...;start=240

There is also a link to the site of the group who are restoring the tank.
The site is updated at a regular basis

I think they are planning to have it on display at the end of september

Understood - for now I'll wait until it's in position to write it up (and if you can get photo's at some point, that would be great!).

TrevorLarkum

I've finished writing up the Marshall Museum at Zwijndrecht (with Michel's photos) as background for Overloon, as most of the vehicles there are now at Overloon (though not the T34):

Location ID 11950: Marshall Museum, Zwijndrecht

Unique ID 415: T-34-85 at Marshall Museum, Zwijndrecht

Michel - do you know what happened to the T-34?

Michel_Krauss

Trevor,

about a month ago I came across a picture of the white T34/85 no 903
However I was clever enough not to save it

All I can remember that it apperently had been sold to the UK and at the photo it still had the glossy white color with the same markings
And it belonged to a private collector

I did find something else, about the T34's when they where still at the original Marshall museum

If you follow the link, you will get to a photo serie where both white T34's are visible at the last row
www.bunkerpictures.nl/...oured.html

Final note about the Marshall Museum, Zwijndrecht
The founder of the museum Jaap de Groot passed away in April 2011 at the age of 88

Michel

Pzkpfw-e · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jul 21, 2010 Posts: 1202

WRT the FT17s
How easy (or otherwise) is it to swap guns? Would it have been possible to have had the same tank used to trial both a cannon and an MG armament? Indeed to have switched the 37mm to a 47mm one?
I assume that any records of the tank were lost during WW2.
Also, is there any firm evidence that the tank on gateguard duty, was indeed the same one used at Volkel? The Germans had profuse numbers of FT17s from captured French stocks. I'd be somewhat surprised if they took the time & trouble to source & refit an engine to an empty shell, rather than just shipping a complete example to Holland.

Michel_Krauss

all options are possible, allmost nothing about the 2 FT17's is 100% clear
It's not even 100% clear if the Dutch pre-war army bought 2 FT17 or just 1 (sources are contradicting, could be caused by change of appearance because change of armament)

According the Military Museum Delft the Dutch army only bought 1 FT17 and it's not known what has happened with this vehicle.
Could have been send back to the Renault factory for rebuilding, or scrapped, or ??? .

Of the vehicle at Overloon the s/n is known, so perhaps it could be tracked somewhere.

Concerning the vehicle of the Military museum Delft, no s/n and no track records are known.
It's assumed it came from the French or Belgium Army

Michel

earlymb · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 30, 2011 Posts: 101

- Michel_Krauss

Concerning the vehicle of the Military museum Delft, no s/n and no track records are known.
It's assumed it came from the French or Belgium Army

Michel

The s/n of this vehicle is C69126. It is currently in storage and not available for public display. I don't know about its origins.

Greetz Wink

David

Michel_Krauss

Trevor,

found the T34/85 of the Marshall museum Zwijndrecht Shocked

I knew I had seen it some place before, it's at the MILWEB for sale

www.milweb.net/webverts/56114/

Michel

Pzkpfw-e · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jul 21, 2010 Posts: 1202

Do they know if it's for sale?

Michel_Krauss

- Pzkpfw-e

Do they know if it's for sale?

Do you mean the former Marshall musuem or Army Cars as it's called now Confused

This T34/85 is not part of their collection any more for at least a couple of years.
According the webvert it's already property from 1987, this could be true indeed because various vehicle's at the former Marshall Museum Zwijndrecht location where on loan

Army Cars is the trading branch of the former Marshall musuem and does not own any tracked AFV any more.
Everything has been sold about 12-18 months ago.

Michel

Pzkpfw-e · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jul 21, 2010 Posts: 1202

I had visions of that WW1 tank from Russia/Ukraine that appeared (briefly!) on eBay/Milweb last year!

Pzkpfw-e · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jul 21, 2010 Posts: 1202

www.gearthhacks.com/dl...rlands.htm
One's a Sherman, image from 2003?. It's gone in 2008, but you can still see its location from the deppressions its tracks have left & the bare earth. Three pontoon bridge sections ?near to it and a lorry's chassis & cab. Not sure what the sand-coloured vehicle is.

L.Delsing · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Feb 10, 2006 Posts: 960

Found this at a aircraft spotters site;

forum.scramble.nl/view...41&t=76317

regards

Michel_Krauss

- Pzkpfw-e

http://www.gearthhacks.com/dlfile20492/Tank-in-the-Netherlands.htm
One's a Sherman, image from 2003?. It's gone in 2008, but you can still see its location from the deppressions its tracks have left & the bare earth. Three pontoon bridge sections ?near to it and a lorry's chassis & cab. Not sure what the sand-coloured vehicle is.

This is the Maaldrift location, a former mobilisation location of the army.

It used to be one of the storage locations of the Dutch Military musuem and it's also the home base of the museum branch of the army.
So the people who control and do maintenance to the historic museum collection, like tanks, APC's, trucks and arms.

The tank most likely moved to the new storage location at Soesterberg

Michel

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