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L.Delsing · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Feb 10, 2006 Posts: 960

Located at the airborne museum in Hotel Hartenstein is the following Sherman;

N51 59.257 E005 49.933
Serial 5964 (rear/right tow lug), see picture

recceboy · Posted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.

Anthony

Hanno_Spoelstra · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jun 04, 2006 Posts: 185

- recceboy

The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.

Sorry, it did not. Sherman V s/n 5964 T288627 "Argyll Roger" was only painted to resemble Sherman VC "Argyle" of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, but obviously it is not the very same tank. In 1945 "Argyll Roger" was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein and research into where it came from originally has drawn blanks. It's current history as presented by the museum is a falsification.

HTH,
Hanno

recceboy · Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:29 am Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

- Hanno_Spoelstra

- recceboy

The sherman belonged to my ol unit, Lord Strathcona's Horse(Royal Canadians) rescued and repaired and now a monument.

Sorry, it did not. Sherman V s/n 5964 T288627 "Argyll Roger" was only painted to resemble Sherman VC "Argyle" of the Lord Strathcona's Horse, but obviously it is not the very same tank. In 1945 "Argyll Roger" was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein and research into where it came from originally has drawn blanks. It's current history as presented by the museum is a falsification.

HTH,
Hanno

Well then, my ole proud Regiments history is wrong then ? It states that is was found in a "dump" supply area and after some research was found to belong to the Strathcona's, thus the reason why the monument was placed infront of the M4A4 displaying the unit's cap badge.
If there is new info to say that it never served with them ,we should let them know with confirmation.

So, this is a mystery then, with two stories, now which is correct ?

Hanno_Spoelstra · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jun 04, 2006 Posts: 185

- recceboy

Well then, my ole proud Regiments history is wrong then ? It states that is was found in a "dump" supply area and after some research was found to belong to the Strathcona's, thus the reason why the monument was placed infront of the M4A4 displaying the unit's cap badge.
If there is new info to say that it never served with them ,we should let them know with confirmation.

So, this is a mystery then, with two stories, now which is correct ?

Anthony,

I am not sure what is written in your Regimental history, but let me try to brief you on what we do know about "Argyll Roger".

Shortly after the liberation in 1945, a Sherman V (M4A4) was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein. A period picture shows the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger" painted on the hull side. Some years later, "Argyll Roger" was moved to Doorwerth Castle where the museum was housed. The Sherman was moved to Hotel Hartenstein when the Airborne museum moved there.

In the mid-1980s we researched the question: where did "Argyll Roger" come from? Options were:
1) It was captured by the German Army in September 1944 and left behind in April 1945.
2) It was left there by an Allied unit which liberated Oosterbeek.
3) It was brought there for the making of a movie on Market Garden shortly after WW2. We know a number of tanks and vehicles were brought to Oosterbeek, but we are not sure it included a Sherman tank.
4) For some reason it was brought to Oosterbeek from the Deelen dump, a huge storage area for Commonwealth vehicles.

Option 1) was the most obvious, but we could not find any units which reported a loss of a Sherman V and leaving it there. However, your unit was among the ones which liberated Oosterbeek, and they did have a Sherman named “Argyle”. Sounds like it, doesn’t it? But this tank was not reported lost and it was a Sherman VC Firefly. It was very tempting to stick this identity to "Argyll Roger", and this is what the museum did. They explained the fact that their tank is a regular 75-mm Sherman and not a 17-pdr Firefly by the given that “guns can be easily swapped on Shermans”. However, there is no operational explanation to do so, and IF a Firefly was converted back into a 75-mm gun tank, there would be clear indications this happened. "Argyll Roger" has no signs of having ever been converted into a Firefly and/or back.
So, although this was a tempting solution to fill the gap of a missing history and have he benefit of a Regiment adopting it for restauration, repainting etc. (just like the Grizzly at Groesbeek!), the only right conclusion is that these two tanks are not the same.

Frustrating fact is the provenance of "Argyll Roger" remains an enigma to this day.

I am always willing to discuss further.

Hope this helps,
Hanno

recceboy · Posted: Sun Sep 19, 2010 12:59 am Post subject: Re: M4 at Oosterbeek (NLD)

Hanno

Very interesting, well this is a true enigma then.Thank you for the possibilites with this sherman.

Cheers

Anthony

Hanno_Spoelstra · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jun 04, 2006 Posts: 185

- Hanno_Spoelstra

Shortly after the liberation in 1945, a Sherman V (M4A4) was found on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein. A period picture shows the census number T-288627 and the name "Argyll Roger" painted on the hull side.

Here is an early post-war picture of Argyll Roger while standing on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein, courtesy of Maurice D.

Is there anyone who could tell me who or what "Argyll Roger" is or was?

Regards,
Hanno

Hanno_Spoelstra · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jun 04, 2006 Posts: 185

- Hanno_Spoelstra

Some years later, "Argyll Roger" was moved to Doorwerth Castle where the museum was housed.

Attached is a picture postcard of ca. 1962, provided by a friend, showing Argyll Roger on display at Doorwerth Castle.

Hanno_Spoelstra · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jun 04, 2006 Posts: 185

- Hanno_Spoelstra

Here is an early post-war picture of Argyll Roger while standing on the premises of Hotel Hartenstein

Here's another picture of Argyll Roger in the same location. Source: www.geldersarchief.nl, courtesy of Marco H.

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