±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 1445
Total: 1445
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Member Screenshots
08: Photo Gallery
09: Photo Gallery
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Downloads
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Member Screenshots
22: Community Forums
23: Home
24: News Archive
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Photo Gallery
28: News Archive
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: News Archive
32: Home
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Home
36: Photo Gallery
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Member Screenshots
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Photo Gallery
55: Community Forums
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Downloads
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Your Account
64: Member Screenshots
65: Community Forums
66: Member Screenshots
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Member Screenshots
71: Home
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Member Screenshots
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Downloads
85: Home
86: Member Screenshots
87: Community Forums
88: Statistics
89: Home
90: Photo Gallery
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Photo Gallery
94: Member Screenshots
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Home
107: Home
108: Photo Gallery
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Statistics
112: Community Forums
113: Photo Gallery
114: Downloads
115: Member Screenshots
116: Downloads
117: Community Forums
118: Photo Gallery
119: Member Screenshots
120: Photo Gallery
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Member Screenshots
125: Member Screenshots
126: Home
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Member Screenshots
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Member Screenshots
139: Photo Gallery
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: LinkToUs
143: Community Forums
144: Member Screenshots
145: Member Screenshots
146: Home
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Member Screenshots
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: News
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Photo Gallery
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Member Screenshots
168: News Archive
169: Contact
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Your Account
175: Community Forums
176: News
177: News
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Downloads
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: News Archive
190: Community Forums
191: Member Screenshots
192: Community Forums
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: News Archive
196: Member Screenshots
197: Community Forums
198: Home
199: Photo Gallery
200: News Archive
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Photo Gallery
204: Photo Gallery
205: Contact
206: Photo Gallery
207: Community Forums
208: Photo Gallery
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Home
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Downloads
218: Community Forums
219: Member Screenshots
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Home
223: Community Forums
224: Your Account
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Home
229: Home
230: Photo Gallery
231: Community Forums
232: Photo Gallery
233: Statistics
234: Member Screenshots
235: Community Forums
236: Downloads
237: Home
238: Home
239: Photo Gallery
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Home
244: Community Forums
245: Photo Gallery
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Photo Gallery
250: Community Forums
251: News Archive
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Member Screenshots
260: Community Forums
261: Member Screenshots
262: Community Forums
263: Your Account
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Photo Gallery
267: Your Account
268: Member Screenshots
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Member Screenshots
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Community Forums
285: Photo Gallery
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Downloads
289: Home
290: Member Screenshots
291: Community Forums
292: News Archive
293: Community Forums
294: Home
295: Community Forums
296: Photo Gallery
297: Home
298: Photo Gallery
299: Photo Gallery
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Member Screenshots
304: Community Forums
305: Members List
306: Community Forums
307: Home
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: News Archive
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Home
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Photo Gallery
319: Home
320: News Archive
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Photo Gallery
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Home
329: Community Forums
330: Member Screenshots
331: Downloads
332: Home
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Home
336: Community Forums
337: Downloads
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Home
341: Member Screenshots
342: Photo Gallery
343: Community Forums
344: Photo Gallery
345: Community Forums
346: Photo Gallery
347: Home
348: Member Screenshots
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: News Archive
353: Community Forums
354: Member Screenshots
355: Photo Gallery
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Member Screenshots
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: News Archive
363: Photo Gallery
364: Community Forums
365: Member Screenshots
366: News Archive
367: Home
368: News Archive
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Home
372: Community Forums
373: Statistics
374: Community Forums
375: Your Account
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Home
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Home
383: Community Forums
384: Photo Gallery
385: News
386: Member Screenshots
387: Member Screenshots
388: Photo Gallery
389: Member Screenshots
390: News Archive
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Photo Gallery
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Home
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: News Archive
402: Statistics
403: Downloads
404: News Archive
405: Downloads
406: Photo Gallery
407: News
408: Member Screenshots
409: Home
410: Member Screenshots
411: Home
412: Member Screenshots
413: Community Forums
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Photo Gallery
418: Member Screenshots
419: Photo Gallery
420: Community Forums
421: Your Account
422: News Archive
423: Home
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Member Screenshots
427: Downloads
428: News Archive
429: News Archive
430: Member Screenshots
431: Member Screenshots
432: Community Forums
433: Community Forums
434: Photo Gallery
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Photo Gallery
441: Member Screenshots
442: Community Forums
443: Member Screenshots
444: Photo Gallery
445: Photo Gallery
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Home
449: Community Forums
450: Downloads
451: Member Screenshots
452: Photo Gallery
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: News Archive
460: Home
461: Photo Gallery
462: Community Forums
463: Member Screenshots
464: Photo Gallery
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: Photo Gallery
468: Community Forums
469: Home
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: News Archive
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Community Forums
478: Your Account
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Supporters
484: Community Forums
485: News Archive
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Home
489: Member Screenshots
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Home
493: Home
494: Home
495: Community Forums
496: Photo Gallery
497: Community Forums
498: Photo Gallery
499: Photo Gallery
500: Community Forums
501: Home
502: Community Forums
503: Home
504: Community Forums
505: Member Screenshots
506: Community Forums
507: Home
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Your Account
518: News Archive
519: Community Forums
520: Photo Gallery
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Home
525: Community Forums
526: Your Account
527: Home
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Downloads
535: Photo Gallery
536: Community Forums
537: Home
538: Community Forums
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: News
544: Community Forums
545: Home
546: Community Forums
547: Downloads
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Home
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Downloads
557: Community Forums
558: Member Screenshots
559: Community Forums
560: Member Screenshots
561: Community Forums
562: Home
563: News Archive
564: Downloads
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Home
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Downloads
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Photo Gallery
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Photo Gallery
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Home
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Home
593: Community Forums
594: Home
595: Downloads
596: News Archive
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Home
606: Community Forums
607: Photo Gallery
608: Home
609: Tell a Friend
610: Community Forums
611: Community Forums
612: Home
613: News Archive
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Member Screenshots
617: Member Screenshots
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Home
625: Community Forums
626: Photo Gallery
627: Home
628: Community Forums
629: Photo Gallery
630: Photo Gallery
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Home
634: Downloads
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Home
638: Community Forums
639: Statistics
640: Community Forums
641: Photo Gallery
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Home
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Photo Gallery
648: Member Screenshots
649: Photo Gallery
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Home
653: Member Screenshots
654: Home
655: Photo Gallery
656: Community Forums
657: Downloads
658: Community Forums
659: Member Screenshots
660: Community Forums
661: Home
662: News Archive
663: News Archive
664: Photo Gallery
665: Home
666: Home
667: Member Screenshots
668: Your Account
669: Community Forums
670: Photo Gallery
671: Community Forums
672: Photo Gallery
673: Photo Gallery
674: Community Forums
675: Downloads
676: Home
677: Downloads
678: Community Forums
679: Home
680: Home
681: Home
682: Downloads
683: Home
684: Community Forums
685: Member Screenshots
686: Home
687: Home
688: Community Forums
689: Member Screenshots
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Member Screenshots
693: Community Forums
694: Home
695: News Archive
696: Statistics
697: Downloads
698: Home
699: Community Forums
700: Photo Gallery
701: Member Screenshots
702: Member Screenshots
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Home
706: Downloads
707: Community Forums
708: Photo Gallery
709: Community Forums
710: Community Forums
711: Statistics
712: Photo Gallery
713: Home
714: Your Account
715: Member Screenshots
716: Downloads
717: Photo Gallery
718: Member Screenshots
719: Treasury
720: Photo Gallery
721: Photo Gallery
722: Community Forums
723: Statistics
724: Community Forums
725: Home
726: Photo Gallery
727: Community Forums
728: Member Screenshots
729: Community Forums
730: Photo Gallery
731: Community Forums
732: Member Screenshots
733: Community Forums
734: News Archive
735: Member Screenshots
736: Photo Gallery
737: Home
738: Community Forums
739: Member Screenshots
740: Home
741: Community Forums
742: Member Screenshots
743: News Archive
744: Community Forums
745: News Archive
746: Home
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums
749: Home
750: Community Forums
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: Statistics
754: Member Screenshots
755: Community Forums
756: Photo Gallery
757: Community Forums
758: Community Forums
759: Community Forums
760: Home
761: Community Forums
762: News Archive
763: Community Forums
764: Community Forums
765: Community Forums
766: Community Forums
767: Home
768: Community Forums
769: Home
770: Home
771: Community Forums
772: Community Forums
773: Home
774: Community Forums
775: Photo Gallery
776: Community Forums
777: Home
778: News
779: Home
780: Community Forums
781: Community Forums
782: Photo Gallery
783: Community Forums
784: Community Forums
785: Home
786: Community Forums
787: Community Forums
788: Community Forums
789: News Archive
790: Member Screenshots
791: Community Forums
792: Member Screenshots
793: Community Forums
794: Home
795: Home
796: Home
797: Home
798: Community Forums
799: Member Screenshots
800: Home
801: Community Forums
802: Community Forums
803: Community Forums
804: Community Forums
805: Photo Gallery
806: Home
807: Photo Gallery
808: Community Forums
809: Community Forums
810: Community Forums
811: Photo Gallery
812: Community Forums
813: Photo Gallery
814: Community Forums
815: Community Forums
816: Community Forums
817: Statistics
818: Home
819: Community Forums
820: Community Forums
821: Photo Gallery
822: News
823: Community Forums
824: Community Forums
825: Community Forums
826: Home
827: Community Forums
828: Community Forums
829: Home
830: Member Screenshots
831: Community Forums
832: Photo Gallery
833: Home
834: Photo Gallery
835: Community Forums
836: Community Forums
837: Community Forums
838: Home
839: News Archive
840: Your Account
841: News
842: Community Forums
843: Community Forums
844: Community Forums
845: Photo Gallery
846: Member Screenshots
847: Community Forums
848: Community Forums
849: Community Forums
850: Home
851: Community Forums
852: Community Forums
853: Member Screenshots
854: Community Forums
855: Community Forums
856: Community Forums
857: Photo Gallery
858: Community Forums
859: Community Forums
860: News Archive
861: Community Forums
862: Community Forums
863: Community Forums
864: Community Forums
865: Community Forums
866: Community Forums
867: Community Forums
868: Community Forums
869: Member Screenshots
870: News Archive
871: Home
872: Community Forums
873: Home
874: Community Forums
875: Community Forums
876: Community Forums
877: Community Forums
878: Member Screenshots
879: Community Forums
880: Community Forums
881: Community Forums
882: Community Forums
883: Community Forums
884: Community Forums
885: Community Forums
886: Photo Gallery
887: Member Screenshots
888: Photo Gallery
889: Downloads
890: Community Forums
891: Community Forums
892: Community Forums
893: Photo Gallery
894: Community Forums
895: Community Forums
896: Community Forums
897: Community Forums
898: Community Forums
899: News Archive
900: Community Forums
901: Home
902: Community Forums
903: Community Forums
904: Community Forums
905: Community Forums
906: Photo Gallery
907: Member Screenshots
908: Community Forums
909: Community Forums
910: Community Forums
911: Community Forums
912: Community Forums
913: Home
914: Member Screenshots
915: Home
916: Photo Gallery
917: Home
918: News Archive
919: Community Forums
920: Community Forums
921: Downloads
922: Home
923: Community Forums
924: Photo Gallery
925: Home
926: Community Forums
927: Community Forums
928: Home
929: Photo Gallery
930: Community Forums
931: Community Forums
932: Community Forums
933: Community Forums
934: Community Forums
935: Photo Gallery
936: Community Forums
937: News Archive
938: Home
939: News Archive
940: News
941: Community Forums
942: Home
943: Statistics
944: Community Forums
945: Member Screenshots
946: Community Forums
947: Community Forums
948: Community Forums
949: Community Forums
950: Home
951: Community Forums
952: Community Forums
953: Community Forums
954: Home
955: Community Forums
956: Photo Gallery
957: Home
958: News Archive
959: Photo Gallery
960: News Archive
961: Community Forums
962: Member Screenshots
963: News Archive
964: Photo Gallery
965: Photo Gallery
966: News Archive
967: Statistics
968: Community Forums
969: Member Screenshots
970: Home
971: Community Forums
972: Your Account
973: Photo Gallery
974: Home
975: Community Forums
976: Member Screenshots
977: Community Forums
978: Community Forums
979: Community Forums
980: Member Screenshots
981: Community Forums
982: Home
983: Community Forums
984: Photo Gallery
985: Community Forums
986: Community Forums
987: Photo Gallery
988: Photo Gallery
989: Downloads
990: Community Forums
991: Community Forums
992: Community Forums
993: Member Screenshots
994: Community Forums
995: Member Screenshots
996: Community Forums
997: Community Forums
998: Community Forums
999: Photo Gallery
1000: Home
1001: Member Screenshots
1002: Community Forums
1003: Photo Gallery
1004: Photo Gallery
1005: Photo Gallery
1006: Member Screenshots
1007: Photo Gallery
1008: Home
1009: Member Screenshots
1010: Photo Gallery
1011: Home
1012: Community Forums
1013: Community Forums
1014: Community Forums
1015: Community Forums
1016: Community Forums
1017: Home
1018: Community Forums
1019: Community Forums
1020: Member Screenshots
1021: Community Forums
1022: Community Forums
1023: Member Screenshots
1024: News
1025: Photo Gallery
1026: Community Forums
1027: Member Screenshots
1028: Photo Gallery
1029: Member Screenshots
1030: Downloads
1031: Community Forums
1032: Member Screenshots
1033: Community Forums
1034: Treasury
1035: Community Forums
1036: Community Forums
1037: Community Forums
1038: Photo Gallery
1039: Home
1040: Community Forums
1041: Community Forums
1042: Community Forums
1043: Community Forums
1044: Community Forums
1045: Community Forums
1046: Community Forums
1047: Community Forums
1048: News Archive
1049: Statistics
1050: Your Account
1051: Community Forums
1052: Community Forums
1053: Community Forums
1054: Downloads
1055: Community Forums
1056: Community Forums
1057: Community Forums
1058: Community Forums
1059: Member Screenshots
1060: Community Forums
1061: Home
1062: Community Forums
1063: Home
1064: Home
1065: Community Forums
1066: Community Forums
1067: Community Forums
1068: News Archive
1069: News Archive
1070: Home
1071: Community Forums
1072: Community Forums
1073: Community Forums
1074: Community Forums
1075: Home
1076: Community Forums
1077: Community Forums
1078: Community Forums
1079: Home
1080: Statistics
1081: Community Forums
1082: Member Screenshots
1083: Community Forums
1084: Home
1085: Community Forums
1086: Home
1087: Home
1088: Member Screenshots
1089: Community Forums
1090: Photo Gallery
1091: Home
1092: Home
1093: Community Forums
1094: Community Forums
1095: Community Forums
1096: Home
1097: Home
1098: Community Forums
1099: News Archive
1100: Community Forums
1101: Community Forums
1102: Community Forums
1103: Supporters
1104: Statistics
1105: Member Screenshots
1106: Member Screenshots
1107: Community Forums
1108: Community Forums
1109: Community Forums
1110: Community Forums
1111: Home
1112: Photo Gallery
1113: Community Forums
1114: Community Forums
1115: Community Forums
1116: Home
1117: Community Forums
1118: Community Forums
1119: Community Forums
1120: Community Forums
1121: Home
1122: Home
1123: Home
1124: Community Forums
1125: Community Forums
1126: Community Forums
1127: Member Screenshots
1128: Community Forums
1129: Community Forums
1130: Community Forums
1131: News Archive
1132: Photo Gallery
1133: Member Screenshots
1134: Home
1135: Member Screenshots
1136: Downloads
1137: Home
1138: Photo Gallery
1139: Community Forums
1140: Community Forums
1141: Community Forums
1142: Community Forums
1143: Community Forums
1144: Photo Gallery
1145: Home
1146: Photo Gallery
1147: Community Forums
1148: Community Forums
1149: Community Forums
1150: Photo Gallery
1151: Downloads
1152: Community Forums
1153: Community Forums
1154: Community Forums
1155: Community Forums
1156: Home
1157: Community Forums
1158: News Archive
1159: Community Forums
1160: Home
1161: Member Screenshots
1162: Home
1163: Community Forums
1164: Community Forums
1165: Home
1166: Photo Gallery
1167: Community Forums
1168: Community Forums
1169: Tell a Friend
1170: Community Forums
1171: Community Forums
1172: Home
1173: Community Forums
1174: Community Forums
1175: News Archive
1176: Community Forums
1177: Home
1178: Member Screenshots
1179: Home
1180: Community Forums
1181: Member Screenshots
1182: Community Forums
1183: Community Forums
1184: Community Forums
1185: Community Forums
1186: Community Forums
1187: Photo Gallery
1188: Photo Gallery
1189: News Archive
1190: Photo Gallery
1191: Community Forums
1192: Tell a Friend
1193: Photo Gallery
1194: Community Forums
1195: Community Forums
1196: Community Forums
1197: Downloads
1198: Downloads
1199: Community Forums
1200: Members List
1201: Home
1202: Downloads
1203: Downloads
1204: Photo Gallery
1205: Community Forums
1206: Community Forums
1207: News
1208: Home
1209: Community Forums
1210: Community Forums
1211: Home
1212: Community Forums
1213: Community Forums
1214: Community Forums
1215: Community Forums
1216: Community Forums
1217: Community Forums
1218: Community Forums
1219: Member Screenshots
1220: Downloads
1221: Community Forums
1222: Community Forums
1223: Home
1224: Community Forums
1225: News
1226: Community Forums
1227: Photo Gallery
1228: Community Forums
1229: Home
1230: Community Forums
1231: Community Forums
1232: Photo Gallery
1233: Community Forums
1234: Your Account
1235: Home
1236: Community Forums
1237: Community Forums
1238: Community Forums
1239: Home
1240: Community Forums
1241: Community Forums
1242: Home
1243: Community Forums
1244: Photo Gallery
1245: Community Forums
1246: Photo Gallery
1247: News Archive
1248: Downloads
1249: Member Screenshots
1250: Photo Gallery
1251: Community Forums
1252: Community Forums
1253: Community Forums
1254: Member Screenshots
1255: Community Forums
1256: Member Screenshots
1257: Community Forums
1258: Community Forums
1259: Community Forums
1260: Home
1261: Community Forums
1262: Community Forums
1263: News Archive
1264: Community Forums
1265: Community Forums
1266: News Archive
1267: Photo Gallery
1268: Photo Gallery
1269: Community Forums
1270: News Archive
1271: Community Forums
1272: Community Forums
1273: Community Forums
1274: Community Forums
1275: Community Forums
1276: Photo Gallery
1277: Community Forums
1278: News Archive
1279: Community Forums
1280: Home
1281: Community Forums
1282: Home
1283: Community Forums
1284: Community Forums
1285: Community Forums
1286: Community Forums
1287: Downloads
1288: Community Forums
1289: Community Forums
1290: Photo Gallery
1291: Community Forums
1292: Community Forums
1293: Community Forums
1294: Member Screenshots
1295: Community Forums
1296: Home
1297: Photo Gallery
1298: Downloads
1299: Member Screenshots
1300: News Archive
1301: Community Forums
1302: Community Forums
1303: Photo Gallery
1304: Your Account
1305: Member Screenshots
1306: News Archive
1307: Member Screenshots
1308: Member Screenshots
1309: Community Forums
1310: Community Forums
1311: Community Forums
1312: Downloads
1313: Community Forums
1314: Your Account
1315: Community Forums
1316: Photo Gallery
1317: Photo Gallery
1318: Photo Gallery
1319: Community Forums
1320: Downloads
1321: Home
1322: Photo Gallery
1323: Member Screenshots
1324: Photo Gallery
1325: Photo Gallery
1326: News
1327: News Archive
1328: Photo Gallery
1329: Community Forums
1330: Community Forums
1331: Photo Gallery
1332: News Archive
1333: Member Screenshots
1334: Community Forums
1335: Photo Gallery
1336: Community Forums
1337: Photo Gallery
1338: Home
1339: Community Forums
1340: Community Forums
1341: Home
1342: Community Forums
1343: Community Forums
1344: Photo Gallery
1345: Community Forums
1346: News Archive
1347: Home
1348: Community Forums
1349: Member Screenshots
1350: Community Forums
1351: Community Forums
1352: Community Forums
1353: Home
1354: Community Forums
1355: Community Forums
1356: Community Forums
1357: Community Forums
1358: Community Forums
1359: Member Screenshots
1360: Community Forums
1361: News Archive
1362: Home
1363: Community Forums
1364: Photo Gallery
1365: Photo Gallery
1366: Photo Gallery
1367: Community Forums
1368: Community Forums
1369: Downloads
1370: Home
1371: Community Forums
1372: Home
1373: Community Forums
1374: Community Forums
1375: Community Forums
1376: Community Forums
1377: Community Forums
1378: Member Screenshots
1379: Your Account
1380: Community Forums
1381: Community Forums
1382: Photo Gallery
1383: Member Screenshots
1384: Community Forums
1385: Downloads
1386: Community Forums
1387: Downloads
1388: Statistics
1389: Community Forums
1390: Member Screenshots
1391: Downloads
1392: Community Forums
1393: Community Forums
1394: Community Forums
1395: Home
1396: Community Forums
1397: Community Forums
1398: Treasury
1399: Community Forums
1400: Community Forums
1401: Community Forums
1402: Community Forums
1403: Community Forums
1404: Member Screenshots
1405: Photo Gallery
1406: Community Forums
1407: Community Forums
1408: Community Forums
1409: News
1410: Community Forums
1411: Community Forums
1412: Community Forums
1413: Community Forums
1414: Community Forums
1415: Community Forums
1416: Community Forums
1417: Photo Gallery
1418: Community Forums
1419: Community Forums
1420: Community Forums
1421: Community Forums
1422: Community Forums
1423: Photo Gallery
1424: Photo Gallery
1425: Home
1426: Home
1427: Statistics
1428: Photo Gallery
1429: Community Forums
1430: Community Forums
1431: Community Forums
1432: News
1433: Photo Gallery
1434: News Archive
1435: Community Forums
1436: Community Forums
1437: News Archive
1438: Community Forums
1439: Statistics
1440: Community Forums
1441: News Archive
1442: Photo Gallery
1443: Member Screenshots
1444: Community Forums
1445: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:43 pm
Post subject: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Question for former Army museum employees & volunteers: in your experience, is there a distinction between artifacts that are useful for soldier training and those of historical value? I dont see the distinction, particularly if you are training soldiers on the history of their branch...

But that's the baby the Senate Armed Services Committee is asking the Army to try to divide for the Armor/Ordnance/ADA collections. That being said, the intent of the language below is to enable the "historical" artifacts to be put on public display at privately-funded museums (vs the "training" artifacts that will be stored for soldier training at facilities paid for with public funds). Unfortunately, the committee is opposed to using public funds to enable public access.

Maybe (hopefully?) the Army will use this distinction to recreate what existed at Fort Knox with the Patton Museum vs Richardson Motor Pool? Who knows...

www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/...srpt26.pdf

"Storage of Army artifacts
The fiscal year 2011 budget request for the Department of the Army recommended funding in Military Construction, Army, for three climate controlled storage buildings at Forts Benning, Lee, and Sill. These facilities were intended to support movement of Army macro-artifacts which were following Training and Doctrine Command schools re-locating as part of the Base Closure and Realignment 2005 process. Although the Ike Skelton National Defense Authorization act for Fiscal Year 2011 (Public Law 111–383) did not authorize these projects, the committee supports the requirement to protect and preserve these historical collections.

"The committee has encouraged the Army to investigate all options for facility solutions. The committee encourages the Army to pursue the solutions that best address the priorities the Army has identified and that are the most fiscally prudent from a life cycle standpoint. Therefore, the committee directs the Army to complete its review of all options under consideration and provide a report to the committee not later than September 30, 2011, on its preferred solution set. The report shall contain, at a minimum, the following:
1. The Army’s requirements and priorities with respect to storing these artifacts;
2. Identification of various solution sets and a business case analysis for each course of action, as well as identifying any legal or regulatory barriers for the different options;
3. Estimates for the life cycle cost to the government for each option;
4. The expected cost and implications of not providing appropriate storage locations for the artifacts;
5. The Army’s recommendation for the appropriate option at each installation;
6. Any necessary legislative changes necessary to dispose of any artifacts that are not deemed to be of national historic significance; and
7. Delineation and listing of all artifacts to be stored, with special emphasis on those that are to be used for training and in what context, and those that merely have historical value as an artifact.

"With respect to the Army’s preferred option for each of the three installations, the committee notes that it does not and will not support the use of any appropriated funds being used to build or support a public museum."
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

just a note : it is good to read this, because it shows that the Senate is preoccupated by the fate of these historical artifacts.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Maybe we should set up an AFVNDG warehouse in the US to take any 'spare' vehicles that the Army doesn't want...

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Don, Bob, Garry,
Any comments?
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:06 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

My fear is that anything supplied to a private museum will end up at a 'Museum' like the VMMV or the one in Florida that bought the collection from Hubbard OH.

Yes there are some good collections but most are the projects of individuals and subject to the vagries of life. Good intentions run up against tough budgets, wills and probate, divorce and even fraud. Maybe I am glad the Czech T35 went home instead of staying at the Ordinance Museum

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:52 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Bob,
The report seems (or at least tries) to distinguish amongst three different types of artifacts:
1) Those "not deemed to be of national historic significance" - these items could well be given away to various museums like you said.
2) Those of "national historic significance" - these items would remain Army property, but would be displayed at co-located (or nearby) museums - akin to the old Patton Museum, and to a lesser degree the Ordnance Museum.
3) Those "to be used for training" - these items would be stored at publicly-funded storage facility, for use by soldiers.

I suspect the artifacts falling under #1 will be relatively few - or at least that's what I can only hope the Army will say.

My primary curiousity/concern regards #2 & #3 - I dont see the distinction.

For those that worked & volunteered at the old museums, I am curious if you saw any practical distinction between artifacts that were used to train soldiers and "historical" artifacts displayed merely for public benefit. Seems to me soldiers are/were trained on the same historical items... But I could be wrong...

Neil

I believe the intent would still be to have a privately funded "museum" co-located (or nearby) the publicly-funded
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:06 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Hi Folks!

My bet is when it's done and over with, all of the artifacts will be left out in the rain.

There is NO difference between #2 and #3.

The last time I was at the Ft Bliss museum, a Capt and a 1st Sgt came by. They were from a NG Air Defense unit. They were going to bring they unit by for a look at the Air Defense items still at the museum. Training is walking around a item and looking at it. Hopefully someone knows some history about it and can tell the troops. Next day, a family stops by and walks around the same item. Both the troops and the family do the same thing. They look and learn.

I somehow get the feeling that some one is thinking the troops get on or in an item and do something with it.

My 2 cents.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Neil

The only thing I can offer is the personal view point that the 'training tool' excuse has been far over-used by Army Officials.

A few soldiers going thru the museum once a month is not viable training experience but an excuse for a day away from the normal routine.

Is there any sort of training plan? (NO!)
"Task, Conditions, & Standards" (NO!)
Pre or post training testing ? (NO!)

These are (or at least were) minimum requirements for a basic training session.

Oh yeah, a bunch of young "LTs" climbing on old tanks after having their 'threat' class was always fun to babysit. They tended to do more harm to subject vehicles than any sort of beneficial training value. This is why we colocated all the Soviet/Russian vehicles together. Those were realistically the only vehicles that gave them any sort of training value.

The greatest casualty to this whole episode? The general public, veterans, and their families. And then there is the volunteers.

Volunteers spend (or have spent) Thousands of man hours to preserve or restore vehicles (utilizing private &/or personal funds) for public display & exhibitions that draw thousands of interested veterans, families, and enthusists.

The greatest success of the Ft Knox Armor Museum (ie old Patton Museum), was the ability of seeing, touching, smelling, and hearing Armor History. That is now gone for the most part and the ability of experiencing history in such a manner is now only possible through private collection museums.

a few items to consider....
What is Historical property? technically anything is....(no clear answer there!)

'Publically Funded Storage Facility" is a government built garage. A building that houses equipment. (There seems to be no interest in preservation or historical presentation.)

Sadly, the future seems to be bleak for any sort of "World Class Armor Museum" BRAC 05 destroyed an institution its history. Its too late to get any of that back, and there is no interest or funding for a future institution. THAT is the crime of this whole episode.

Of course this is merely my personal opinion.... Sorry for the ranting, I'll shut up now...

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Okay now that I vented

I can see someone deciding that anything from the late cold war is to be kept as a 'training aid' "So we can show the troops the weak spots, strengths, how to defend against it, etc". Fiberglass models would be about as useful (and a whole lot cheaper to maintain) if you just want to show the troops what a Panther or a Tiger looked like and how it compared to a Sherman or Stuart. And do Ordnance troops today even need to know that? They are only interested in recovering repairing and maintaining tanks. It took over 10 years for the Recovery Branch of the Ordnance school to move the Elefant one mile! (And eventually it was accomplished in the manner I suggested nine years ago - You embarrass the leaders - I suggested a bar bet with the senior NCOs, it was done by the Base Commander in a staff meeting to the OIC of the recovery Branch)

Another example - I used to make a point to groups about how bad the interleaved roadwheels of the Panther were for maintenance. A training aid set up with interleaved wheels that you could actually have trainees swap out the inside center wheel will make as much impression as showing them and telling them how unmaintanable they were compared to the spaced wheels of a T-34 or T-72 or a VVSS unit of a Sherman.

The older vehicles were more of professional interest to the designers and engineers who were developing the next generation by looking at how previous developers solved problems. But those folks aren't at Ft Lee or Benning so what training purpose do the vehicles serve there?

Their purpose is in building esprit, keeping the public enthused, having trophies to show off. And that isn't done by locking them away in a training area where only professionals who have already made a commitment can see them. They serve a major purpose by being down the center of the main road into the base where a 9 year old can be driven by them and think WOW and be in a place where a grandfather can bring his grand children and tell them 'that is what I did in the great war' Or where a group of Cub Scouts can walk around them and look at the gouges where rounds bounced off while a docent tells the story of a last ditch fruitless defense

A few will be deemed 'of national historic significance' (and probably for all the wrong reasons) Things like Patton's command truck, Cobra King (hopefully) Some M1 Combat car that they have a picture of Patton or Rose or someone else famous in Maybe some of the one of a kinds from the 20s and 30s. A few Shermans, Maybe some M-48s painted up like they were in Vietnam. You know as well as I do they have very few records on the vehicles at Aberdeen to be able to tell much about specific vehicles and what their 'significance is' The Tiger I (if it ever comes back) and the JagdTiger that we have photographic evidence of when and where it was captured may be some of the best documented. Will they keep the two Ordnance Museum Panthers side by side so someone can show the improvements made between early and late production? I doubt it.

Then there will be a lot put on the block for units or bases to request as monuments. Then they will start accepting requests from museums, probably based on who knows which Senator. Some will hopefully be well cared for and made available for some folks to see. Others will end up as trophies or playtoys for fatcats to show off to their friends and pat themselves on the back about how they are 'saving history'

The intellectual midgets that we have making these decisions in DC only think of what they can do to embarrass members of the other party and blame the previous administration for all the problems They want a 'feel good' sound bite that they will forget before the next reporter talks to them

I guess I just vented again

In actuality the 'training tool' excuse has always just been politically correct lip service used to justify the keeping of trophies. Everyone knew why they were being kept, they were being kept to show off to family and friends, Show the Taxpayer what their sacrifices (back in the big war) were for and be a center of pride for the organization. Well someone is now enforcing 'the letter of the law'. This is the 21st century version of the WWII and Korean war scrap drives

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Interesting feedback. I suppose my hope is that the Army will say that most (if not almost all) artifacts have national historic value, but are not needed for direct soldier training per see... Setting them up for display at museums co-located at Benning, Lee and Sill.

My fear is that the collections will end up slit between the privately-funded museum and the publicly-funded storage facilities - with the latter (ironically) not accessible by the public.

BTW, I am told there is one particular well-known Senator that is firmly opposed to using public funds for public access (ie museums). The same Senator that rails against pork barrel spending on a regular basis...
Back to top
View user's profile
ShermanWasRight
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 18, 2009
Posts: 165
Location: Central Ohio/Northern Kentucky
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:07 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

I find the disdain for private museums here interesting, as it's quite the opposite of what I've seen among warbird enthusiasts-they love the "free market approach."

Of course, I agree with the opinion here; "preserving" history in someone's garage/hangar that the public only sees 5 days a year is next to worthless. Unfortunately I don't really know that I can offer any real solutions to the problem-it's hard even for me as someone who loves history to think that these vehicles could be used for training modern soldiers in any real fashion.

^^^^the storage facilites being off limits for "security reasons," of course, like the numerous gateguards at airbases across the country Rolling Eyes . The freaking Iranian planespotters have better access to their air force than I do, based on what I see on airliners.net. If I asked the USAF for permission to take pictures of their birds at, say, Rickenbacker, the chances are good they'd tell me about all the security/OPSEC risks before they then said no.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Keep in mind that you can go to an airshow once (or a few times) a year to see privately restored warbirds, and you can also go almost any day a year to an aviation museum.

That balance has been upset for the AFV world in the US. You can still go to the open houses to see privately restored vehicles, but the two largest AFV museum collections are now in storage.

It would be akin to having the Air & Space Museum and USAF Museum collections in storage at the same time due to impending - and as yet uncertain and unfunded - moves.
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

And keep in mind that while the country groans under crushing debt and the DoD creaks under indecipherable accounting practices, we're "saving money" by moving an entire branch (or two) of the army at considerable expense, yet "closing" nothing under BRAC in the move. To say nothing of leaving behind an essentially empty and amortized museum that was well suited to it's task while it's key displays are left to rot out of public view for who-knows-how long?

A new museum (if, in fact, one is ever started, let alone completed) will cost many millions. I predict we will not see such a facility for at least ten years...and I'm skeptical that it will ever happen.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

....and to think some 'Brain Surgeon' decided that moving the Armor Center from Ft Knox (that has well developed training ranges and additional available 'unused' land) to Ft Benning (that had to expand to include currently unusable land for armor training...and now may have to export personnel to locations to conduct actual basic & advanced armor training...!?) due to the fact it was 'cheaper'!? WTF!!

I got to quit commenting, this is getting my elevated blood pressure even higher !! (Wheres my B.P. pills !!)

Oh well, such is life
Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

- Dontos
....and to think some 'Brain Surgeon' decided that moving the Armor Center from Ft Knox (that has well developed training ranges and additional available 'unused' land) to Ft Benning (that had to expand to include currently unusable land for armor training...and now may have to export personnel to locations to conduct actual basic & advanced armor training...!?) due to the fact it was 'cheaper'!? WTF!!

Don


The ultimate irony will be when they starting sending people TDY from Benning to Knox to conduct training on facilities that Benning doesn't have.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum