±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 457
Total: 457
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Downloads
02: Home
03: Home
04: News Archive
05: Community Forums
06: Home
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Community Forums
24: Home
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Home
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Your Account
37: Community Forums
38: Home
39: Photo Gallery
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Home
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Photo Gallery
55: Home
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Home
65: Home
66: Home
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: Home
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Home
81: Home
82: Downloads
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Home
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Home
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Downloads
101: Community Forums
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Home
106: Community Forums
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Home
115: Home
116: Home
117: Home
118: Home
119: Community Forums
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Home
124: Home
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Home
130: Photo Gallery
131: Home
132: Home
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Downloads
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Home
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Supporters
146: Home
147: Your Account
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Home
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Member Screenshots
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Home
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Home
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Home
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Member Screenshots
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: News
198: Home
199: Community Forums
200: Home
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Home
208: Home
209: News Archive
210: Home
211: Community Forums
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Home
218: Home
219: Member Screenshots
220: Home
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Home
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Home
233: Member Screenshots
234: Home
235: Home
236: Home
237: Home
238: Home
239: Home
240: Home
241: Home
242: Home
243: Member Screenshots
244: Member Screenshots
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Downloads
248: Community Forums
249: Home
250: Home
251: News Archive
252: Photo Gallery
253: Downloads
254: Home
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Home
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Home
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Home
270: Home
271: Home
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Member Screenshots
275: Home
276: Home
277: Home
278: Home
279: Home
280: Home
281: Community Forums
282: Home
283: Home
284: Home
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Home
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Home
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Downloads
301: Community Forums
302: Home
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Home
307: Your Account
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Home
315: Home
316: Home
317: Home
318: Community Forums
319: Home
320: Home
321: Home
322: Home
323: Community Forums
324: Home
325: Home
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Member Screenshots
329: Member Screenshots
330: Home
331: Home
332: Home
333: Home
334: Home
335: Home
336: Community Forums
337: Home
338: News Archive
339: Home
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Home
345: News Archive
346: Home
347: Photo Gallery
348: Community Forums
349: Home
350: Home
351: Home
352: Home
353: Downloads
354: Community Forums
355: Home
356: Community Forums
357: Home
358: Home
359: Home
360: Home
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Photo Gallery
365: Home
366: Community Forums
367: Home
368: Home
369: Community Forums
370: Treasury
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Home
377: Downloads
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Photo Gallery
381: Home
382: Community Forums
383: Home
384: Downloads
385: Home
386: Downloads
387: Member Screenshots
388: Home
389: Home
390: Home
391: Home
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Home
395: Community Forums
396: Home
397: Home
398: Community Forums
399: Home
400: Home
401: Home
402: Home
403: News Archive
404: Member Screenshots
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Member Screenshots
408: Member Screenshots
409: Home
410: Home
411: Home
412: Community Forums
413: Home
414: Home
415: Home
416: Home
417: Home
418: Home
419: Home
420: Community Forums
421: Home
422: Downloads
423: Statistics
424: Downloads
425: Home
426: News Archive
427: Community Forums
428: Home
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Home
432: Community Forums
433: Home
434: Member Screenshots
435: Home
436: Home
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Photo Gallery
443: Home
444: Home
445: Home
446: Community Forums
447: News Archive
448: News Archive
449: Home
450: Home
451: News Archive
452: Home
453: Home
454: Home
455: Home
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Why should they send them anywhere for training? Give them the basics and then send them to the big cold sandbox in central Asia to fill in doing other jobs like patrolling in MRAPs. Remember we don't need heavy armor anymore it's all about asymetrical warfare.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

- bsmart
Why should they send them anywhere for training? Give them the basics and then send them to the big cold sandbox in central Asia to fill in doing other jobs like patrolling in MRAPs. Remember we don't need heavy armor anymore it's all about asymetrical warfare.


"The tank is dead." I gotta' keep reminding myself of that. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:57 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Hi Folks!

It so sad that a group of people who funded a museum for civilians to learn about steam trains don't want civilians to learn about their Army's history.

As for sending units to Ft Knox to train, the BRAC did the same thing to the Air Defense Artillery. Ft Still doesn''t have the area required for modern artillery. The Army wanted to close Ft Still and bring the Field Artillery here to Ft Bliss which has ranges large enough to fire anything. Now in addition to field artillery (for the most part MLRS battalions) the air defense units must come here for live firings.

This BS just makes me sick.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Garry_Redmon
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 398
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:12 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical valu

I've been out of town, but I'm not sure if I can add much to the discussion that hasn't already been said (but that's not going to stop me).

The reason given for moving the vehicles from the Patton Museum to Fort Benning was for "training" and showing the progression of armor design. As one person was quoted as saying "You don't move and leave the family photographs behind."

I've also heard that the move had to do more with economics than training because the locals wanted the tanks there as a tourist draw and had the politcal clout to get it done. I wonder if it was to help bolster the tourist draw to the infantry museum since it is not drawing the crowds for all the money that was invested in its construction (with restaurant/IMAX theater).

It would be ironic if after all this the vehicles are put into storage and the only people who see them are the armor school students. That won't help the local economy.

Realistically the only vehicles needed today for training are ex-Warsaw Pact vehicles and technicals. If students needed to see the historical context of armored vehicles, they could have been sent to Fort Knox a whole lot cheaper than sending the tanks to Benning.

If there are any vehicles they don't need, I hope they send them back to Fort Knox. Yeah, fat chance.

Garry

_________________
armorfortheages.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Geoff_walden
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:38 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

- Doug_Kibbey
- bsmart
Why should they send them anywhere for training? Give them the basics and then send them to the big cold sandbox in central Asia to fill in doing other jobs like patrolling in MRAPs. Remember we don't need heavy armor anymore it's all about asymetrical warfare.


"The tank is dead." I gotta' keep reminding myself of that. Smile


Weeelllll ... The current rotation thru JMTC Graf/Hohenfels is a "Full Spectrum Operations" exercise - not counter-insurgency (the first FSO there in years). It's not with tanks, because the units going thru the exercise aren't armor units, but if 170th or 172nd were doing this rotation, it would be kinda-sorta like the "old days" at Hohenfels, with tank-on-tank.

Oh, and FWIW, I've been off-and-on associated with the Armor School since 1978, and I never saw any official training done on the Patton Museum "training collection," except as noted above - on the T62. I really don't think the modern Armor students at Ft. Benning need any sort of training on a Tiger II or Panther II, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:41 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Yeah, like Geoff said, the Army is starting to place more emphasis on "Full Spectrum Operations" - going back to basics, including conventional military operations as well as COIN. With the Army largely out of Iraq, and theoretically getting out of Afghanistan in the future, less and less emphasis will be placed on COIN. What that exactly means for the Army's future is less certain...

But quietly, the tank is starting to make a comeback...
Back to top
View user's profile
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:56 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Back in 1991, right after the Gulf War, I recall my AOAC class going to the museum and getting a demonstration on how the Sherman was able to defeat the Panther (because of the motorized traverse). It was given by a former WW2 Sherman tank commander. I believe he traversed and made several fire commands prior to the Panther getting its main gun laid on the Sherman.

Although, I figured the tanks normally turn their noses into the direction of fire and that woud hasten laying the main gun on target.

If politics weren't involved, the Army would have probably moved all combat arms training to Bliss. Good amount of maneuver space, range impact areas and the weather allows soldiers to acclimate to regions where we tend to spend our combat tours.

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:44 pm
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

Rob

I remember back in the early 90's (during the Clinton era drawdown) while I was at Ft Hood, there were definite rumors of moving the Armor Center to Ft Hood. It actually made sense, although I don't know how serious that was, at the time. The standard reply to moving the Armor Center was the 'KGB' (ie "Knox Good ole Boys") would never allow a move to happen.

I guess 'they' sold out too.....

Having served at Ft Polk, which had similiar problems with wildlife & EPA as Ft Benning seems to have now, the choice of Ft Benning made no sense, until you add the massive amount of political pull which Ft Benning 'flexed' to gain the favorable choice.

Too bad BRAC 05 did't stick to a realistic goal of 'saving' taxpayer money.....

Regards
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:50 am
Post subject: Re: Army Museum artifacts for "training" vs "historical value"?

I spent my formative years at Hood as well, post Desert Storm from 92 (after I completed AOAC & BMOC) to Jan 95. When that ADA Patriot unit moved into town, 5th Mech/2AD/4th Mech came to town and a whole lot of non-divisional units, I couldn't imagine where the Armor Center would have moved to.

There wasn't room to think in 93-95 at Hood, not that thinking was a requirement at Hood.

I think the real savings thought was getting the Army out of high cost of living areas like VA and moving them to the sticks at Knox. But no one figured out just how much it would cost to move all the pieces before they made the decision to move.

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum