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401RCAF_Sly · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 12, 2005 Posts: 223

HI Guys

Hope all are good and still kicking

Got to thinking that I really miss the great times we used to have with CFS versions.

Right here and now there is nothing on the shelves that fits the bill, so here's a few questions for all.

What would any of the MS series of CFS be capable of with todays hardware ?

Some may know that my profession is now a 3D modeller..... so I am considering making some state of the art stuff for one of the old CF sims.

I therefore need some info from anyone that may have kept more in the CF loop.

My preference is the MS series of CF simply because it has open architecture.. other titles such as IL2 are not accesible.

So here goes.
Can you still purchase any of the CFS series ?
Will they run on Win7 or 8?
Will they run on 64bit ?

I discount CFS1 as CFS2 is a similar platform but increased capability, so that leaves a choice between CFS2 and CFS3.
I know CFS3 never lived up to its predecessors, but I do like the multi crew aspect and believe that most disatisfaction was down to poor performance that should no longer be a problem with modern hardware and connection speeds.

I don't know but am hopefull that any cfs3 importer would let me import models with vastly superior complexity and texture resolution. Laughing

Gleening info from the FS series could such things as ground textures and maps be made to look acceptable by todays standards ?

All only musings and thinking out loud, but my tentative proposal is to build a lancaster and say a Ju88 or Me110 nightfighter, plus some up to date airfield structures.

Could we make it look good enough (no dynamic lighting) for 2013 ?

Anyone with any input most welcome to put forward their own thoughts.

My emphasis is on good visuals and immersion but most of all fun.
Realism of such things as FModels, switching sequences etc etc are not on the radar.

TBH.... the fanatical quest for "Realism " by the hard core ruined both FS and CFS genre's...... My opinion Smile

Have a great summer All

Sly_401 Still Smile

Shades · Posted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

Greetings Mr Sly sir, from EURO_Shades; RedSkwirrell; one of the pesky 'EW' apes, to mention but a few.
I am biased - always preferred CFS1, so:-

- 401RCAF_Sly

Can you still purchase any of the CFS series ?

Not new.
I have seen copies in second hand/charity shops (obviously all charity shops are aimed at EW apes) and Ebay.

- 401RCAF_Sly

they run on Win7 or 8?

Don't know.
Think 64-bit OS's have 32-bit options now.

- 401RCAF_Sly

I discount CFS1

BLASPHEMY!!!

- 401RCAF_Sly

as CFS2 is a similar platform but increased capability, so that leaves a choice between CFS2 and CFS3.

Totally disagree there, I'm afraid.
Of the three, I'd discount CFS2.

CFS3 is still being played by a pedantic few (see its' forum here).
CFS1 is outrageously primitive when compared to pretty much everything that came after.
Everything else is more realistic.
But CFS1 is still outrageously more enjoyable for competitive simple "fun" and camaraderie.
If I had the time to go back and take one up all over again, I'd choose CFS1, time and time and time again.
I still own CFS1, CFS2, CFS3, IL2, IL2 PF (and have a test credits) with god knows what else.

CFS1 could be updated and improved properly as it should hav been from the start (removing the 'cheat' that Tucker's lot should have done from the beginning), but it was the players that made CFS1 as much as the game and the environment.

I wish you great luck and good fortune with your project but I think, if you wanted to get anyone interested in retrospective Combat Simming, you should look at CFS1 and a hosting/chat environment.

Sadly, most of us have moved on now though.
And that's all of them.
My job takes up pretty much all of my time these days, Sly.
Other than eating (nanas, of course) and sleeping I am "The man" these days, a 'suit' and boring old fart.., AND DON'T ANYONE DARE SAY IT....!!!!

Razz

Shadow_Homfixr · Posted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

I have to agree with Shades on CFS 1 being the most simple and fun. Maybe I am simple but a game to me is only fun if it is simple to play and because CFS1 was simple everyone had fun. CFS 1 would definately be my choice and like Shades, I propably still have the disc somewhere. CFS 2 was a little more complicated and CFS3 was just too much to keep up with to have fun...imo. Then IL came out(more complcated than CFS3) and I was completly lost so off to another simple game for me which was Ghost Recon. Then that got complicated so off to Joint Opps which I still play simply because it is simple and FUN. S!~

I think the programers today try too hard to make the games so realistic that they take the fun out of the game and only the real geeks( no names mentioned here Rolling Eyes

) can have fun.

hmmm imagine that... me agreeing with Shades...lol. Mr. Green

Shades · Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

- Shadow_Homfixr

hmmm imagine that... me agreeing with Shades...lol.

We all get old and wise sooner or later Homey.
Razz

- Shadow_Homfixr

I have to agree with Shades on CFS 1 being the most simple and fun. Maybe I am simple but a game to me is only fun if it is simple to play and because CFS1 was simple everyone had fun. CFS 1 would definitely be my choice and like Shades, I propably still have the disc somewhere. CFS 2 was a little more complicated and CFS3 was just too much to keep up with to have fun...imo. Then IL came out(more complicated than CFS3) and I was completely lost so off to another simple game for me which was Ghost Recon. Then that got complicated so off to Joint Opps which I still play simply because it is simple and FUN. S!~

I think programmers today try too hard to make the games so realistic that they take the fun out of the game and only the real geeks (no names mentioned here ) can have fun.

Zackly!
When we all asked Tucker and Oleg for more realism we meant graphically, scenically, and fix the 'cheat' code.
Me and Homey wuz gamers, not real pilots.
There are lots of folks who wanted more realistic control surfaces and environments and they got CFS3 and IL2 to go to.

The reasons the genre lost players is simple.
Less fun for gamers.
No Saturday night Ridge-Runner meets.
And no monkey-bashin'.

.....can I take that last one back?
I get bashed whether I'm a monkey, ape, or skwirrell (and I don't want Homey gettin' too excited thinkin' about bashin' his monkey)!

One more thing about CFS1.
It was SO much fun that, at least for me, it never mattered who won or lost (non-squad games anyway).
I had the honour and pleasure of 'flying' with some truly remarkable people.
Not just great exponents of the game, but great people.
The in-game chat humour was part of CFS1.
I enjoyed being beaten by them as much as I enjoyed beating them or flying as their wingman.
I'm still in touch with a few, but too many of them are not with us at all anymore.

JG300-Ascout · Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

- Shades

- Shadow_Homfixr

hmmm imagine that... me agreeing with Shades...lol.

We all get old and wise sooner or later Homey.

- Shadow_Homfixr

I have to agree with Shades on CFS 1 being the most simple and fun. Maybe I am simple but a game to me is only fun if it is simple to play and because CFS1 was simple everyone had fun. CFS 1 would definitely be my choice and like Shades, I propably still have the disc somewhere. CFS 2 was a little more complicated and CFS3 was just too much to keep up with to have fun...imo. Then IL came out(more complicated than CFS3) and I was completely lost so off to another simple game for me which was Ghost Recon. Then that got complicated so off to Joint Opps which I still play simply because it is simple and FUN. S!~

I think programmers today try too hard to make the games so realistic that they take the fun out of the game and only the real geeks (no names mentioned here ) can have fun.

Zackly!
When we all asked Tucker and Oleg for more realism we meant graphically, scenically, and fix the 'cheat' code.
Me and Homey wuz gamers, not real pilots.
There are lots of folks who wanted more realistic control surfaces and environments and they got CFS3 and IL2 to go to.

The reasons the genre lost players is simple.
Less fun for gamers.
No Saturday night Ridge-Runner meets.
And no monkey-bashin'.

.....can I take that last one back?
I get bashed whether I'm a monkey, ape, or skwirrell (and I don't want Homey gettin' too excited thinkin' about bashin' his monkey)!

One more thing about CFS1.
It was SO much fun that, at least for me, it never mattered who won or lost (non-squad games anyway).
I had the honour and pleasure of 'flying' with some truly remarkable people.
Not just great exponents of the game, but great people.
The in-game chat humour was part of CFS1.
I enjoyed being beaten by them as much as I enjoyed beating them or flying as their wingman.
I'm still in touch with a few, but too many of them are not with us at all anymore.

CFS3 had great potential, and I (and a few others) loved it. Then, certain individuals with corncobs up their 'chutes decided they had to have what they grandiosely deemed "1%" models, which is a self aggrandizing, fantasy-induced delusion of grandeur that had no friggin' business in what was meant to be a "no manipulation" game (and a "game" is exactly what it was meant to be and sold as). A few misguided souls decided that they could fly with (and as good as) Boyington, Bong and Anderson if only their models were accepted without question (and if you questioned it, you were a flat-earther with no worthwhile experience in life, issues like actual combat experence being invoked...regardless of whether it was in the air or on the ground). Apart from introducing a major "imcompatibility" factor into the game (meaning you couldn't enter a room if you didn't accept their "improvements") you also had to do a lot of fudging just to play the frickin' thing, which is exactly what the designers had sought to prevent. It took a couple of well-publicized pissing contests between designers (and some resignations from the process) to reveal the swindle for what it was...an "our way or the highway" ultimatum. Pretty much killed CFS3 (plus the introduction of a couple of cheats that sneaked by developers, but if you've ever seen a P-38 turn inside of a SpitPest, you know what I mean).

Somebody does all the hard work to introduce a "cheatless" game, and then somebodie(s) have to "improve" it in an attempt to appropriate it and make it theirs...all, of course, in the name of "product improvement".

That was the end of the "turnkey" plug-and-play flight combat sim, except for whatever happened to IL-2, with which I have zero experience and no interest in acquiring any.

There is a whole population of disenfranchised software customers out there who want to buy game, install game, and play game and not f*** around with registry modifications, etc. They have been completely abandoned. And in it's place, we have MMP games, a whole new generation of disappointment.

Rant off.

Shades · Posted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

Yep.
Same with CFS1 and 2.
The "cheats" were actually developer shortcuts, left in deliberately by the developers for development purposes.
Next thing you know someone's found out and exploited them.
Bloody silly not to have fixed them a) before release, and b) when the players started asking for fixes.

A1Trigger_Happy · Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

I sure do miss CFS, CFS2, and Ghost Recon. Todays games just dont interest me anymore. That and not havin any time to play. What really made CFS was The Zone. Most of the time I wasn't flyin I was BSin with everyone in the Ridge. Sure do miss the old days.

Shades · Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

I never actually 'flew'.
I hadda listen to Twiggy BS.
His Mom made me!

401RCAF_Sly · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 12, 2005 Posts: 223

- A1Trigger_Happy

I sure do miss CFS, CFS2, and Ghost Recon. Todays games just dont interest me anymore. That and not havin any time to play. What really made CFS was The Zone. Most of the time I wasn't flyin I was BSin with everyone in the Ridge. Sure do miss the old days.

Hi Guys have to agree with this..... It was the zone that made cfs1

How is it possible that something that popular can crash and burn into oblivion ?

Devs should have told the 1% ers to take a hike to the nearest airfield and lay out a couple of million on a real warbird.......... Something I do on a daily basis with my sim add ons

Its ART and its a GAME

Anyway I have ordered a copy of CFS3 as it is still available. but am struggling to find an exporter for 3DS Max..... it ws all GMax at that time.

CFS1 with up to date lighting, model, texture and terrain fidelity would do us all just proud Smile

Sly

Shades · Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:18 pm Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

[quote="401RCAF_Sly"]

- A1Trigger_Happy

It was the zone that made cfs1

How is it possible that something that popular can crash and burn into oblivion ?

Standard M$ business model.
If your product doesn't work or is unsuccessful, defend it to the point of ridiculousness.
If your product does work, sell it to the death.
Then tell everyone it doesn't and give up on it.

Did the same with the FFB2 joystick.
Instant success.
M$ stopped making it almost immediately after release*.

*admittedly the bloody things kept breaking and were being replaced F.O.C. in the U.S. but that's just a QC issue*.

*admittedly M$ don't know what "QC" is.

JG300-Stoopy · Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:02 am Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

Well, while we're commiserating about the state of things I might as well put in a coupla cents....

Pretty much, I've been doing air combat sims since there have been air combat sims...going back to Fighter Duel on the Commodore Amiga (dial-up your buddy's house via modem and fight one on one, hell yeah! Post the results on our SoCal Fighter Duel club BBS, because there ain't no internet yet!) and Sublogic Flight Simulator 2 on the IBM PC, which had a little grid-like WWI game built into it, where you dropped bombs from a Sopwith Camel and tried to shoot down the "Red Baron", all with black & white vector graphics and the keyboard....then there was Chuck Yeager's Air Combat, on 16-color EGA video and the rest.....all the way up to CFS1, 2 and 3, but 3 was really the first one I flew online a lot, and loved that, and I like to think that foray was wildly successful since it helped spawn a smelly cadre of flyers who have stuck together, more or less, for 10 years running now....

IMHO the thing that's killing air combat sims right now, besides the pay-to-play thing, is the requirement to have a fair bit of add-on hardware to remain competitive online. Not just a joystick, but one with enough buttons to map to the incredibly high number of (unnecessary) functions that are built into the sim. Like having to map a key or button to adjust radiator position, supercharger gearing, wheel chocks, tailwheel lock, and all that. Oh, in both directions, on and off.

You'll run out of buttons on the stick, so buy a throttle quadrant so you'll have a lot more buttons and some independent axis controllers for trim settings etc as well.

Gonna go that far, you'll need rudder pedals so you won't have to map extra stuff for rudder and brakes (my rudder pedals tilt for independant brakes just like the real deal...frees up some all-important buttons).

Want to know whats going on around you? You need a headset and microphone since *everyone* else is using teamspeak and noone hardly chats anymore, so to figure out where we're going and who we're bouncing, form what altitude, you need to be hooked up with sound and mic. OK, not a major investment, but the pile of equipment on the computer desk is growing...and you're running out of USB ports.

Finally, you'll probably get tired of getting shot down by those guys who seem to know how to sneak up on your six without being seen, and you've forgotten what POV hat switch on your joystick or throttle that you mapped the view commands to and which one you mapped the mixture and prop pitch settings to. So to make looking around easier, and remain competitive, you'll need a TrackIR headset, which is another $150 or thereabouts and now you can swivel your head around and up and down, and experience the magic of having your viewpoint in the game react smoothly and quickly....once you get used to swiveling your head while keeping your eyes pointed at a fixed position on the monitor. Take some Excedrin before the flight to deal with the headaches you may get as your eyes and brain adjust.

So you got all that gear and stuff, you're set. Good deal. Well, after you get it all mapped, configured, set up, and get over the slight feeling of motion sickness that you might get, because once this all works it really is very realistic, and now you remember that you're prone to airsickness.

Thing is, this might sound like it's unreasonable but what you now have is a very realistic, flexible setup that will provide an immersion level beyond your wildest hopes and dreams.

The ridiculous part is when that is completely *ruined* by ridiculous constraints within the sim. Case in point? Cliffs Of Dover, the Battle Of Britain sim from Maddox/Ubisoft that touts full realism and has all the aforementioned commands, buttons, keystrokes and mouse clicks you can image. There's a hour-long learning curve just to start the engine, which you eventually figure out starts by opening the fuel petcock just like on your motorcycle. OK, we asked for realism, we got it. My Messerschmitt is made by Triumph. Explains why the Brits won the war I guess.

Now get this... to fire the guns from a gunner position in a bomber like the He111, you map the keys to go to the gunner position you want, of course. Hit the button and you're there in the waist gunner position of your trusty He111 "Spade", so now press the button on the stick or mouse to fire at that Spit coming in, and...nothing. Hmmm. Read the book. Oh, OK, we have to *arm* the guns before we can shoot 'em. Fine, makes sense. Map a joystick button to this command, 'cause we plan on doing this a LOT. Ummm, gonna have to remap my engine controls to make room for another button assignment. Who needs supercharger gearing anyway.

Up and away we go again. Move to gunner position, arm the gun, press button, and....nothing. Hmmmm. Read book. Find something said about a "nestle" command. Scratch head. Watch YouTube video. Aha - "Nestle to Gunsight" is a command to tell your gunner (which is really yourself) to put your eye on the gunsight reticule (why didn't I know to do that already? Oh yeah because this is realism). OK fine. Need to map another button to that now. Hmmmm. OK. we'll get rid of the "jettison wing-mounted drop tanks" command and just fly short missions. Hopefully, my pilot character is smart enough to walk and chew gum at the same time, or I might have to map a new key or button in order to do that....

Take off into the wild blue. Here comes the Spit. Press hat switch to move to gunner position. Good. Press button to arm guns. Plane starts rolling left...oh crap I clicked the left aileron trim button by mistake.....click other button and dial in right aileron trim.....OK now... click the another button and the guns are armed. Click another button to nestle your little eye on that gunsight. Finally there. OK here we go....click fire button and hey it works! Tracers reach out and fall below and to the right of the Spit coming in on you....no problem, squeeze the trigger again and move the stick or mouse (whatever you mapped) up and to the left to walk to the tracers right into his engine compartment and cockpit....

...wait a minute, something else is wrong here, I can move the gun around when I'm not firing, but once I squeeze the trigger I can't adjust my aim at all, the gun is stuck and will only fire at one fixed point in space unless I stop firing, and only then can I adjust my aim.

Are you kidding me?

Read manual. Watch more YouTube videos. No clues.

Go to user group forum. Find out there is a "feature" wherein the sim does not support moving the machine gun while it's firing. It's not intentional, they just didn't think to program it into the sim.

You
Have
GOT
to
be
SH!!TT!NG
ME.

All that. A sim with ground-breaking realism, years in the making, hundreds of ridiculous command combinations - including a fuel petcock turny-on command for freakin' cipes sake....and a lengthy BETA test period.

And you can't even move a machine gun around in its mounts when you're firing. You have to adjust, fire, stop, adjust, fire, stop, lather rinse repeat.

One of the compelling reasons why I got Cliffs Of Dover is because, wayyy back in the late 80's, Lucas Arts published a pretty cool little simulator called Battle Of Britain. It had basic graphics and used only a mouse for everything. You flew with the mouse, shot with the mouse. I used to really enjoy taking off in my HE111 or BF110, bombing the snot out of an RAF airbase, and bagging Spits from the gunner positions on the way home back over the channel. It supported, like, EIGHT colors. It ran in 320x200 res or something ridiculous like that. But it was fun.

Fun, because I COULD MOVE THE FRIKKIN' MACHINE GUN TO ADJUST MY AIM WHILE I WAS FIRING!!!! JUST LIKE YOU CAN'T DO IN THIS GAWDAWFUL INSANELY LUNATIC COMPLICATED SIM EVEN WITH 3 USB CONTROLLERS, A HEADSET AND TRACKIR ALL CONNECTED, AND 64-BIT 1920X1080 GRAPHICS ON A 2GB VIDEO CARD AND FREAKIN' OCEAN WAVES MODELED BY FLUID DYNAMICS ALGORITHMS!

So I think that, in addition to the heavy marketing and questionable realism found in the more recent overblown and overbloated sims like War Thunder, tend to kind of put me off. War Thunder, fr'instance, seems to require that you "earn" your way into flying the plane you want, I can't just select a FW190 and go get 'em online. I have to start out my newbie pilot flying a German biplane, until I have enough "experience points" to move up to a better plane, which won't be a FW190 either. Don't want me to be too deadly in such a target-rich environment, I 'spose.

Cripes, I'm 52 years old and have been doing flight sims since 1983. Sadly that means I started when I was...22. (What was I thinking?!)

If I don't have enough experience for them, they can just friggin' bite me, right in the exact center of my well-muscled @ss.

Thanks for letting me vent. Where's the Tylenol....

JG300-Ascout · Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 3:19 am Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

- JG300-Stoopy

Well, while we're commiserating about the state of things I might as well put in a coupla cents....

I love a good Boss Hawg rant! Except they used to be a lot more fun-spirted and laugh-inducing, which tells me that he's REALLY pissed off!

And while we're at it, how about addon's from 2nd/3rd party developers who have an update every three days (and players who can't set up a room unless it includes ever friggin' aircraft designed between 1935-45 regardless of the theatre) that requires total compliance or you can't enter the room. So if you were playing satisfactorily on Sunday night, and can't get back on until Wednesday, you have to research every damn update on every applicable package before you can enter the game.

Or find that some players are mapping keys to control surface commands that were never implementable in hundredths of a second in Real Life (say, for example, zero-to-full flap or elevator trim with the press of a button mid-turn). Or altering wingtip vortexs to highly visible colors for tournament play. Or reading your mail.

Flight simming, for most of us, was recreation....play and camaraderie...that whole "fun" thing that you might only have forty-five minutes to allot to on a weeknight. Load, logon, set flaps and firewall the throttle. Instead, it managed to morph into a full-time freakin' job just to logon and make a simple takoff and landing that's great if you're 17 and have time and inclination to fool with (or 40 and still living in you're mom's basement). Put succinctly, a rabid (and greedy, as noted) few managed to kill it for a casual but paying majority who didn't do a lot of illicit file or tweak sharing so that they could claim victory in a dogfight that meant nothing beyond a few laughs for most people but was life itself for them.

Somewhere in the early 2000's, it was great fun to enter a room and be killed by other team-mates (or "friendly" enemy squads) just for the fun of being on together for an hour an laughing your butt off as you exchanged kills/killed over a beer.

Then, it got like Stoopy said...and it ruined it.

A1Trigger_Happy · Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

Ah men brother stoopy and brother ascout. Thats the main reason I gave up gaming. No time and it takes to long to learn the games now a days. When I first got CFS it was install the game and go fly within 10min. Not anymore though. I gave up flight sims after IL2 and FSX. To much realism. Sheet those 100% games on the zone were a challenge. Still pickin lead outa my tail till this day lol.

JG300-Stoopy · Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:10 am Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

- JG300-Ascout

I love a good Boss Hawg rant! Except they used to be a lot more fun-spirted and laugh-inducing, which tells me that he's REALLY pissed off!

Sorry 'bout that... the doctor just renewed my prescription for blood pressure meds today so I'm thinkin' the next rant will be a little more easygoing. Wink

To the OP's point I do believe CFS3 runs in 64 bit. BUT the problem is, where to buy it. For open architecture, although its not combat I'd say the community support and action is in FS9 or FSX if you want more of a challenge.

Shadow_Homfixr · Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Combat FS for today ?

Like I said " FUN=simple!" nuff said.

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