±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 492
Total: 492
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Member Screenshots
03: Community Forums
04: Home
05: Downloads
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Member Screenshots
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: Member Screenshots
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Downloads
21: Home
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Member Screenshots
25: Home
26: Downloads
27: Home
28: Home
29: Community Forums
30: News Archive
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Member Screenshots
34: Member Screenshots
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: News Archive
39: Your Account
40: Photo Gallery
41: Member Screenshots
42: Photo Gallery
43: News Archive
44: Downloads
45: Community Forums
46: Member Screenshots
47: Community Forums
48: Member Screenshots
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Photo Gallery
53: Your Account
54: Community Forums
55: News Archive
56: Photo Gallery
57: Downloads
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: News
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Your Account
65: Community Forums
66: Member Screenshots
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: News Archive
70: Photo Gallery
71: Your Account
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Downloads
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: LinkToUs
81: Member Screenshots
82: Community Forums
83: Statistics
84: Home
85: Downloads
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: News
89: Downloads
90: Home
91: Home
92: Downloads
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Home
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Community Forums
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Home
107: Member Screenshots
108: Downloads
109: Member Screenshots
110: Home
111: Home
112: Photo Gallery
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Home
116: Member Screenshots
117: Downloads
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Photo Gallery
122: Member Screenshots
123: Community Forums
124: Photo Gallery
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Photo Gallery
128: Photo Gallery
129: Home
130: Community Forums
131: Downloads
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: News Archive
137: News Archive
138: Home
139: Home
140: Member Screenshots
141: Member Screenshots
142: Community Forums
143: Member Screenshots
144: Member Screenshots
145: Community Forums
146: Home
147: Home
148: Home
149: Statistics
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Member Screenshots
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Downloads
156: Community Forums
157: Home
158: Home
159: News
160: Statistics
161: Community Forums
162: Member Screenshots
163: Member Screenshots
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: News Archive
168: Home
169: Community Forums
170: Home
171: Community Forums
172: Member Screenshots
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Your Account
176: Your Account
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: News Archive
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: News
187: Home
188: Home
189: Member Screenshots
190: Community Forums
191: Photo Gallery
192: Home
193: News Archive
194: Photo Gallery
195: Community Forums
196: Photo Gallery
197: Downloads
198: Home
199: Supporters
200: Home
201: Home
202: Community Forums
203: Home
204: Member Screenshots
205: Community Forums
206: Downloads
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Home
214: Home
215: Home
216: Community Forums
217: Downloads
218: Downloads
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Member Screenshots
222: Member Screenshots
223: Home
224: Home
225: Community Forums
226: Downloads
227: Photo Gallery
228: Statistics
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Downloads
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Photo Gallery
236: Home
237: Photo Gallery
238: News Archive
239: Home
240: Home
241: Downloads
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Member Screenshots
246: Downloads
247: Home
248: Community Forums
249: Home
250: Home
251: Member Screenshots
252: Home
253: Community Forums
254: Home
255: Downloads
256: News Archive
257: Downloads
258: Community Forums
259: News Archive
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: News Archive
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Downloads
269: Home
270: Search
271: Home
272: Home
273: Home
274: Home
275: Home
276: Community Forums
277: Photo Gallery
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: News
281: Home
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Home
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Your Account
292: Downloads
293: Home
294: Home
295: Home
296: Tell a Friend
297: Statistics
298: News
299: Community Forums
300: Home
301: Downloads
302: Tell a Friend
303: Community Forums
304: Home
305: Your Account
306: Downloads
307: News Archive
308: Home
309: Home
310: Home
311: News Archive
312: Home
313: Community Forums
314: Home
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Downloads
318: Home
319: Home
320: Community Forums
321: Home
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Home
326: Community Forums
327: Home
328: Community Forums
329: Downloads
330: Community Forums
331: Photo Gallery
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Home
335: Home
336: Downloads
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Search
340: Photo Gallery
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Community Forums
344: Downloads
345: Member Screenshots
346: Downloads
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Home
351: Home
352: Home
353: Downloads
354: Home
355: Home
356: Photo Gallery
357: Home
358: Home
359: Community Forums
360: Home
361: Home
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Member Screenshots
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Home
369: Downloads
370: Home
371: Downloads
372: News Archive
373: Home
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Your Account
379: Community Forums
380: Home
381: Member Screenshots
382: Home
383: Community Forums
384: Downloads
385: Home
386: Home
387: Home
388: Member Screenshots
389: Community Forums
390: Downloads
391: Home
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Home
400: News
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Home
404: Home
405: Photo Gallery
406: Home
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Your Account
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Home
415: Downloads
416: Community Forums
417: Member Screenshots
418: Community Forums
419: Downloads
420: Community Forums
421: Home
422: Community Forums
423: Home
424: Community Forums
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Member Screenshots
429: Home
430: Member Screenshots
431: Member Screenshots
432: Home
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Home
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Home
439: Community Forums
440: Home
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Downloads
444: Downloads
445: Supporters
446: Member Screenshots
447: News Archive
448: Home
449: News Archive
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: News Archive
453: Home
454: Downloads
455: Community Forums
456: Downloads
457: Community Forums
458: Photo Gallery
459: Home
460: Your Account
461: Home
462: Statistics
463: Community Forums
464: Home
465: Home
466: Downloads
467: Home
468: Home
469: Home
470: Downloads
471: Home
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Home
475: Home
476: Home
477: Member Screenshots
478: Home
479: Photo Gallery
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: News Archive
484: Community Forums
485: Home
486: Home
487: Photo Gallery
488: Downloads
489: Photo Gallery
490: Home
491: Downloads
492: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Alternative guns for the M60A2?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Walter_Sobchak
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:13 am
Post subject: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

I was sorting through some old documents that a friend had given me and found a rather large stack of papers entitled "M60A1E2 Tank Characteristics and Description Book" from October 1971 put out by "U.S. Army Materiel Command Project Manager-M60 Tanks." Like most technical manuals, it is not exactly the most exciting read. But at the very back of the report, they have a section detailing various other guns that may be fit into the M60A1E2 (later called M60A2) with technical data and lists of what would be involved in the conversion. I found this surprising, I had always assumed that the ill-fated M-60A2 had been specifically designed for the 152mm missle launcher/cannon hybrid. I had no idea that other guns were ever considered for that turret. The guns listed in the document are the XM150, which was the longer barreled version of the 152mm gun/launcher hybrid intended for the MBT-70, the M68 105mm gun that equipped the other versions of the M-60, the 120mm T123E6, a smooth bore cannon developed by the US but never put into production, and the British 120mm L11A2 cannon that was featured on Chieftain. I thought this was worth sharing, I have uploaded the relevant pages of the document here. Hopefully someone may find this information useful or at least interesting.
Back to top
View user's profile
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:57 am
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

That's funny... I have the old ESCI 1/72 kit and was always wondering what other guns I could use to replace the gun/launcher as part of a potential what-if build. I definitely considered the M68 and the M256, among others.
Thanks for posting this.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Walter_Sobchak
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

- Costas_TT
That's funny... I have the old ESCI 1/72 kit and was always wondering what other guns I could use to replace the gun/launcher as part of a potential what-if build. I definitely considered the M68 and the M256, among others.
Thanks for posting this.


I have a collection of 1/72 models, mostly prebuilt ones but some that I put together myself. I did not know there was a 1/72 scale kit of the M-60A2 out there. Looks like I'll have to check ebay for such a thing!
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 1:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

There would have been real limitations on alternative guns in the M60A2 turret as designed. Most high velocity guns have substantially more travel in recoil than the M81 did (I don't have the figures in front of me, but something like 7-8" comes to mind). M68/L7 guns recoil further and require clearance for a lengthy fixed brass cartridge upon ejection that simply wasn't there on the M60A2 (the TC turret mechanism being directly aligned with the gun).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

Indeed. The guns would most definitely need some kind of system to limit recoil travel in order to clear the TC's position. Maybe the guns could be fitted more forward (i.e. having the trunnions closer to the breech) to leave room for the recoil and the recoil guard/casing deflector, in which case they might need some sort of counterweight at the breech end to maintain the balance.
On the other hand, the rounds fired by the M256 do not have as many limitations to impose on the use of the original A2 turret, as their casings are mostly combustible and therefore only a specially designed recoil system would be needed.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

Re-hanging guns get tricky, balance is a critical factor. Also, anything that increases weight (like counterbalancing) further was a no-go on the A2, which already was ~5 tons heavier than an A1 and automotive performance was affected as a result. There was a requirement for 25mph on the straight and level, and this was probably not met on most of them as it was. Wear increased across all drivetrain components.

Unlike M48's and conventional M60 designs, the turret was not designed to accommodate updates (foreeen or unforeseen). It was what it was and would need to serve as the design had settled for it's (limited) life. Extending turrets in either direction was undesirable due to the already mentioned weight penalty and the already expansive vertical sides that nobody was keen to enlarge anyway for ballistic reasons.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

- Walter_Sobchak
I have a collection of 1/72 models, mostly prebuilt ones but some that I put together myself. I did not know there was a 1/72 scale kit of the M-60A2 out there. Looks like I'll have to check ebay for such a thing!

There is one, although, in common with other Patton tank variants made by Esci and currently marketed by Revell (M48s), the roadwheels are hideous and the tracks lack any sort of inner face detail. The Revell M60s are much better but they do not have an A2 in their product line yet.

- Doug_Kibbey
Re-hanging guns get tricky, balance is a critical factor. Also, anything that increases weight (like counterbalancing) further was a no-go on the A2, which already was ~5 tons heavier than an A1 and automotive performance was affected as a result. There was a requirement for 25mph on the straight and level, and this was probably not met on most of them as it was. Wear increased across all drivetrain components.

Unlike M48's and conventional M60 designs, the turret was not designed to accommodate updates (foreeen or unforeseen). It was what it was and would need to serve as the design had settled for it's (limited) life. Extending turrets in either direction was undesirable due to the already mentioned weight penalty and the already expansive vertical sides that nobody was keen to enlarge anyway for ballistic reasons.

All these are valid points. I'll add that with the A2 turret config uparmoring its sides with modern add-on armor without fouling the loader and gunner's hatches would definitely be a bitch. But, now we are straying a bit too much into what-if territory.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:48 am
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

- Walter_Sobchak
I was sorting through some old documents that a friend had given me and found a rather large stack of papers entitled "M60A1E2 Tank Characteristics and Description Book" from October 1971 put out by "U.S. Army Materiel Command Project Manager-M60 Tanks." Like most technical manuals, it is not exactly the most exciting read. But at the very back of the report, they have a section detailing various other guns that may be fit into the M60A1E2 (later called M60A2) with technical data and lists of what would be involved in the conversion. I found this surprising, I had always assumed that the ill-fated M-60A2 had been specifically designed for the 152mm missle launcher/cannon hybrid. I had no idea that other guns were ever considered for that turret. The guns listed in the document are the XM150, which was the longer barreled version of the 152mm gun/launcher hybrid intended for the MBT-70, the M68 105mm gun that equipped the other versions of the M-60, the 120mm T123E6, a smooth bore cannon developed by the US but never put into production, and the British 120mm L11A2 cannon that was featured on Chieftain. I thought this was worth sharing, I have uploaded the relevant pages of the document here. Hopefully someone may find this information useful or at least interesting.


Thanks for uploading that, I already downloaded it successfully. My interest in this and any other documents you have links to or can transmit relates to having myself having reported to AMC (Test and Eval Cmd.-Armor Board) and was on the Initial Production Test Project for the M60A2. I also have an in-state contact who was at the Board before I was and was on the M60A1E2 project. Anything I can obtain would be much appreciated and would be shared with my colleague (who was also on the M551 project mid-late '60's). Thx in advance. You can PM me if we need to use other means for communication.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Walter_Sobchak
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

- Doug_Kibbey
- Walter_Sobchak
I was sorting through some old documents that a friend had given me and found a rather large stack of papers entitled "M60A1E2 Tank Characteristics and Description Book" from October 1971 put out by "U.S. Army Materiel Command Project Manager-M60 Tanks." Like most technical manuals, it is not exactly the most exciting read. But at the very back of the report, they have a section detailing various other guns that may be fit into the M60A1E2 (later called M60A2) with technical data and lists of what would be involved in the conversion. I found this surprising, I had always assumed that the ill-fated M-60A2 had been specifically designed for the 152mm missle launcher/cannon hybrid. I had no idea that other guns were ever considered for that turret. The guns listed in the document are the XM150, which was the longer barreled version of the 152mm gun/launcher hybrid intended for the MBT-70, the M68 105mm gun that equipped the other versions of the M-60, the 120mm T123E6, a smooth bore cannon developed by the US but never put into production, and the British 120mm L11A2 cannon that was featured on Chieftain. I thought this was worth sharing, I have uploaded the relevant pages of the document here. Hopefully someone may find this information useful or at least interesting.


Thanks for uploading that, I already downloaded it successfully. My interest in this and any other documents you have links to or can transmit relates to having myself having reported to AMC (Test and Eval Cmd.-Armor Board) and was on the Initial Production Test Project for the M60A2. I also have an in-state contact who was at the Board before I was and was on the M60A1E2 project. Anything I can obtain would be much appreciated and would be shared with my colleague (who was also on the M551 project mid-late '60's). Thx in advance. You can PM me if we need to use other means for communication.


Glad you found it interesting! The complete Book is rather large, over 150 pages which is more than I can scan at home on my crappy little HP printer/Scanner. I may have to sneak it into work and use the big scanner there. This book is the only thing I have specifically on the M60A2. It was given to me by a friend that spent years working for the manufacturer of the M-60 engine. If I get around to having it scanned, I'll post it here. Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

If we're safely in non-copyrighted material, that would be great! Thx.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Walter_Sobchak
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:16 pm
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

- Doug_Kibbey
If we're safely in non-copyrighted material, that would be great! Thx.


Hmm, that's a fair point. Do 40 year old government documents fall under copyright laws? I mean, it's not like I am trying to sell them and they do, ultimately, belong to the tax payer. I would think it falls under "fair use" as long as its not something that is classified.
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

- Walter_Sobchak
- Doug_Kibbey
If we're safely in non-copyrighted material, that would be great! Thx.


Hmm, that's a fair point. Do 40 year old government documents fall under copyright laws? I mean, it's not like I am trying to sell them and they do, ultimately, belong to the tax payer. I would think it falls under "fair use" as long as its not something that is classified.


Is one even claimed? It will so state. In the U.S., it's:

95 years from publication for works published 1964–1977; 28 (if copyright not renewed) or 95 years from publication for works published 1923–1963 (Copyrights prior to 1923 have expired.)

Probably a public domain document if never offered for sale, which I gather is not the case. And you can be assured that the classified status (which was Secret at the time) is definitely past it's "use by" date. (Much as myself) Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:00 am
Post subject: Re: Alternative guns for the M60A2?

If it was produced by the U.S. Gov't it is in the public domain. The only exception is documents produced for the gov't by copying manufacturers documentation to support a specific contract. Those documents are specifically marked as such (The main case I know of is computer manuals)

So if the document is a U.S. Government produced document it is free of copyrights. If it was produced by the vendor it should have a copyright or proprietary information statement on it

As a disclaimer - I am not a lawyer or a copyright specialist. I have done some research into the subject (Like when we had a problem here a few years back) and believe that I have provided an accurate layman's interpretation of the rules. Your mileage may vary and if you are caught just remember not to drop the soap Shocked in the prison showers

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum