±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 593
Total: 593
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Home
05: Home
06: Member Screenshots
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Member Screenshots
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: Home
18: Home
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Member Screenshots
24: Photo Gallery
25: Home
26: Photo Gallery
27: Community Forums
28: Home
29: Photo Gallery
30: Downloads
31: Home
32: Home
33: Member Screenshots
34: Home
35: Photo Gallery
36: Member Screenshots
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: Community Forums
41: Downloads
42: Community Forums
43: News Archive
44: Member Screenshots
45: Member Screenshots
46: Community Forums
47: Home
48: Home
49: Photo Gallery
50: Home
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Photo Gallery
55: Member Screenshots
56: Community Forums
57: Home
58: Community Forums
59: Member Screenshots
60: Downloads
61: Community Forums
62: Member Screenshots
63: Photo Gallery
64: Photo Gallery
65: Home
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Photo Gallery
72: Photo Gallery
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: Home
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Photo Gallery
81: Community Forums
82: Member Screenshots
83: Member Screenshots
84: Member Screenshots
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Downloads
88: Home
89: Photo Gallery
90: Member Screenshots
91: Photo Gallery
92: Community Forums
93: Statistics
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Photo Gallery
97: Statistics
98: Photo Gallery
99: Home
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Photo Gallery
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Photo Gallery
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Member Screenshots
111: Community Forums
112: Photo Gallery
113: Community Forums
114: Home
115: Member Screenshots
116: Home
117: Home
118: Home
119: Photo Gallery
120: Home
121: Downloads
122: Home
123: Home
124: Member Screenshots
125: Home
126: Photo Gallery
127: Home
128: Downloads
129: Community Forums
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Home
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Photo Gallery
137: Photo Gallery
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Home
141: Community Forums
142: Photo Gallery
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Your Account
146: Photo Gallery
147: Home
148: Home
149: Home
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Home
153: Community Forums
154: Photo Gallery
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: News Archive
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Member Screenshots
164: Home
165: Member Screenshots
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Member Screenshots
171: Home
172: Statistics
173: Statistics
174: Community Forums
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Your Account
179: Community Forums
180: Photo Gallery
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Member Screenshots
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Community Forums
187: Member Screenshots
188: Photo Gallery
189: Community Forums
190: Home
191: Community Forums
192: Photo Gallery
193: Community Forums
194: Photo Gallery
195: Downloads
196: Photo Gallery
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Downloads
201: Photo Gallery
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Downloads
206: Home
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Community Forums
211: Downloads
212: Downloads
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Member Screenshots
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Photo Gallery
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Home
223: Your Account
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: News Archive
227: Community Forums
228: Home
229: Your Account
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Member Screenshots
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Member Screenshots
241: Community Forums
242: Home
243: Photo Gallery
244: Home
245: Home
246: Community Forums
247: Photo Gallery
248: Member Screenshots
249: Downloads
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Member Screenshots
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Downloads
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Downloads
265: Downloads
266: Member Screenshots
267: Downloads
268: Community Forums
269: Photo Gallery
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Member Screenshots
274: Your Account
275: Home
276: Photo Gallery
277: Downloads
278: Member Screenshots
279: Home
280: Photo Gallery
281: Photo Gallery
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Home
285: Photo Gallery
286: Home
287: Photo Gallery
288: Photo Gallery
289: Member Screenshots
290: Home
291: Photo Gallery
292: Downloads
293: Community Forums
294: Home
295: Home
296: Home
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Home
301: Community Forums
302: Photo Gallery
303: Home
304: Home
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: Home
308: Your Account
309: Downloads
310: Community Forums
311: Member Screenshots
312: Community Forums
313: Photo Gallery
314: Photo Gallery
315: Downloads
316: Downloads
317: Home
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Photo Gallery
322: News Archive
323: Photo Gallery
324: Photo Gallery
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Downloads
330: Downloads
331: Member Screenshots
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Member Screenshots
335: Photo Gallery
336: Member Screenshots
337: Community Forums
338: Photo Gallery
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Home
342: Community Forums
343: Home
344: Photo Gallery
345: Home
346: Home
347: Home
348: Home
349: Photo Gallery
350: Home
351: Downloads
352: Home
353: Home
354: Photo Gallery
355: Community Forums
356: Photo Gallery
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Home
361: Community Forums
362: Member Screenshots
363: Member Screenshots
364: Downloads
365: Home
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Home
369: Home
370: Photo Gallery
371: Downloads
372: Community Forums
373: Home
374: Home
375: Home
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Home
379: Photo Gallery
380: Home
381: Community Forums
382: Home
383: Member Screenshots
384: Home
385: Home
386: Home
387: Photo Gallery
388: Home
389: Member Screenshots
390: Community Forums
391: Home
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Home
395: Community Forums
396: Photo Gallery
397: Community Forums
398: Photo Gallery
399: Member Screenshots
400: Home
401: Photo Gallery
402: Community Forums
403: Photo Gallery
404: Downloads
405: Home
406: Home
407: Community Forums
408: Photo Gallery
409: Member Screenshots
410: Member Screenshots
411: Photo Gallery
412: Home
413: Photo Gallery
414: Member Screenshots
415: Member Screenshots
416: Downloads
417: Community Forums
418: Photo Gallery
419: Photo Gallery
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Downloads
425: Community Forums
426: Home
427: Photo Gallery
428: Home
429: Member Screenshots
430: Community Forums
431: Photo Gallery
432: Community Forums
433: Home
434: Community Forums
435: Home
436: News Archive
437: Photo Gallery
438: Community Forums
439: Home
440: Community Forums
441: Member Screenshots
442: Community Forums
443: Downloads
444: Community Forums
445: Home
446: News Archive
447: Home
448: Community Forums
449: Statistics
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Photo Gallery
453: Downloads
454: Home
455: Photo Gallery
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Photo Gallery
460: Photo Gallery
461: Community Forums
462: Member Screenshots
463: Home
464: Statistics
465: Home
466: Community Forums
467: News Archive
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: News Archive
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Member Screenshots
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Member Screenshots
477: Community Forums
478: Member Screenshots
479: Photo Gallery
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Your Account
483: Home
484: Home
485: News Archive
486: Community Forums
487: Member Screenshots
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Photo Gallery
491: Member Screenshots
492: Community Forums
493: Member Screenshots
494: Photo Gallery
495: Photo Gallery
496: Community Forums
497: Home
498: Photo Gallery
499: Community Forums
500: Photo Gallery
501: Photo Gallery
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Home
505: Community Forums
506: Home
507: Statistics
508: Community Forums
509: Member Screenshots
510: Community Forums
511: Downloads
512: Member Screenshots
513: Home
514: Member Screenshots
515: Community Forums
516: Photo Gallery
517: Downloads
518: Photo Gallery
519: Community Forums
520: Photo Gallery
521: Home
522: Home
523: Community Forums
524: Photo Gallery
525: Community Forums
526: Home
527: Downloads
528: Member Screenshots
529: Member Screenshots
530: Member Screenshots
531: Photo Gallery
532: Photo Gallery
533: Community Forums
534: Photo Gallery
535: Member Screenshots
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Photo Gallery
540: Member Screenshots
541: News
542: Home
543: Member Screenshots
544: Statistics
545: Statistics
546: Member Screenshots
547: Photo Gallery
548: Photo Gallery
549: Home
550: Photo Gallery
551: Downloads
552: Member Screenshots
553: Downloads
554: Member Screenshots
555: Home
556: News
557: Photo Gallery
558: Community Forums
559: Home
560: Home
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Member Screenshots
564: Community Forums
565: Statistics
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Home
569: Community Forums
570: Home
571: Photo Gallery
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Home
575: Member Screenshots
576: Member Screenshots
577: News Archive
578: Community Forums
579: Home
580: Downloads
581: Photo Gallery
582: Member Screenshots
583: Home
584: Photo Gallery
585: Member Screenshots
586: Photo Gallery
587: Photo Gallery
588: Home
589: Home
590: Member Screenshots
591: Home
592: Photo Gallery
593: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Walter_Sobchak
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:47 pm
Post subject: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

Today I drove over to Dowagiac Michigan to take some pictures of the M103 tank that is out in front of the National Guard building at 700 W Prairie Ronde St. It's in pretty rough shape, but still quite interesting. From what I can tell, this is a former Marine vehicle and it was an M103A2. The back of the vehicle is quite strange, everything to do with the powerpack is missing, including the air cleaners and the top and rear engine decking. They have welded some sheet metal over the hole. It's pretty obvious in the pictures. Also, one of the return rollers is missing. This does not seem to be an uncommon thing for display vehicles. In Muskegon MI I found a M48A1 on display that is missing 3 out of it's ten return rollers. I suspect that since later models of the M48/M60 family of vehicles had only three return rollers per side, a few missing on the older vehicles with five per side was not a big deal. The pictures are available here. I am not a very sophisticated photographer, these were taken with a regular consumer grade digital camera. I have to remember to bring a small ladder next time so I can get shots from a higher perspective. Still, I hope people find these worth looking at.
Back to top
View user's profile
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2068
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

Walter,

If there wasn't snow all over the M48A1 when you took the pictures of her at Muskegon you might have noticed she is very unique. Looks like she was the test rig for the Teledyne/Continental installation of the AVDS-1790-2C/CD-850 combination. This set up did not require the extensive cutting and welding that they used when making the M48A3/A5 rear decks and grills. Was marketed as a much simpler and cheaper solution to upgrade older M48 fleets. Taiwan used this set up when making their CM12's from M48A1's.

Rear Hull

CM12

Probably drove/towed her right over from the factory, since it's right next door but now part of L3 systems.

_________________
Joe_D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
ChrisC
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

Did they also do this conversion on M-47's?
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:42 pm
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

As far as I know, Spain, Iran and Pakistan, the only users of the dieselized M47M adopted the BMY package, with the raised rear hull roof. The commercially offered upgrades by Urdan/IMI and OTO-Melara were similar.
The MTU MB 837 Ea-500 engine was tested in the M47 and retained the original hull roof, but was not adopted.
NAPCO also offered a Detroit Diesel 12V71TA engine for upgrading older M48s, retaining the original decking (which was modified when Astra SpA. fitted the same engine to the M47).
In addition, I seem to recall MTU offering their diesel for the M48 as well, similarly without changing the rear decking.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Walter_Sobchak
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:48 am
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

- Joe_D
Walter,

If there wasn't snow all over the M48A1 when you took the pictures of her at Muskegon you might have noticed she is very unique. Looks like she was the test rig for the Teledyne/Continental installation of the AVDS-1790-2C/CD-850 combination. This set up did not require the extensive cutting and welding that they used when making the M48A3/A5 rear decks and grills. Was marketed as a much simpler and cheaper solution to upgrade older M48 fleets. Taiwan used this set up when making their CM12's from M48A1's.

Rear Hull

CM12

Probably drove/towed her right over from the factory, since it's right next door but now part of L3 systems.


I am in Muskegon fairly regularly, I need to stop by and get some better pictures of that tank. My father worked at the Getty St. plant for 40+ years and still lives in the area. I did not know that an AVDS-1790-2 could fit in the older style bay of the M48 and M48A1. I just checked my copy of Hunnicutt's "Patton," he describes the conversion on page 402. I guess I never read that far into the book! I'll have to see if my father remembers this program. Thank you for pointing this out!
Back to top
View user's profile
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2068
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:45 pm
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

Walter,

Your M103 pictures are most interesting, unfortunately it took a while for me to open your blog site (Very poor internet on my behalf). Also noticed an M60A3 in the background. What's the story on her???

About your M103, The turret looks like it is from an M103A1, which is basically the same as an A2 other than the A2's FCS was upgraded to Metric over Yards, requiring a change in the Telescope and ballistic computer. Does not appear to be an A2 turret because there are no provisions for the AN/VSS-1 searchlight, which A2's had. Leads me to believe she does not have the upgraded FCS of the A2, which the computer was converted to metric and also modified for use with the searchlight. Telescope was also changed to metric with A2. Cupola is also the A1 variation, basically the Chrysler version from the M103 but modified to the simple external firing flex mount found on A1 and A2's.

About the hull, It is a very early T43E1/M103 hull. Come to this conclusion based on the following:

Drivers hatch is of the small type, this is evident by the lack of support bars used with the larger type, which were required much like the M48A1 and later models to clear the periscopes. Cannot tell by the pictures you posted but it also appears not to have the drivers M24 IR viewer modification, which was on the M103A1's and later. The small drivers hatch based on Mr. Hunnicutts' book "Firepower" is unclear on how many were produced before switching to the larger version, stating some sources that the first 60 had them, which I believe is accurate.

Compensating idler and arms are of the early M103 type, much like M48/M48A1's. These arms and hull attachment points were identified as weak points in the suspension, pron to damage, when the M103A1 upgrade was created these arms were replaced by the same heavier arms used in the M48A2's and later. They also welded an extension boss to the hull to adapt these arms, much like they did for the M48A3/A5 hulls that were upgraded from M48A1's. The early adjusting link and arm not having the offset was the first thing I noticed that led me to inspect your pictures closer.

Rear towing pintle, this makes it very interesting, since the pintle is of the very early type. The standard model for M103/103A1's was bolted to a mount and was detachable, having a stowage bracket located below the left taillight assembly. Tanks with the earlier pintle also had the two piece travel lock instead of the later three piece model found on later M103/103A1 models. Cannot tell with your tank since the upper half of the rear hull has been cut off to convert for AVDS-1790 installation. To put in perspective, of the 60 early small hatch tanks produced, not all had this pintle or three piece travel lock. Only images I've seen of the early pintle were on the pilot T43's and T43E1's.

Being this tank is in Michigan, home of oddities, and based on all the above, I'm thinking she might have been the test rig to do the feasibility testing of installing the Diesel engine for the USMC. The modified rear hull is non-standard and is lacking all the attachment points for both the rear deck and top grills found on the M103A2. What's interesting is she does have an A1 turret, although the range finder blisters are not original, coming from an M48/M60 turret. Maybe part of the local restoration. Also unusual and maybe because of the images you posted, but the M103A1 turret bulge associated with moving the gunner and sights forward required cutting the turret and casting an insert bulge and aperture. This procedure left obvious weld lines which I cannot make out in your pictures. Million dollar question is what is she? M103A1 turret on an early M103/T43E1 hull is what I can tell, but doesn't make sense. Two pilot T43E2/M103A1's were made, Pilot #2 went to Knox and images show she had the later large hatch hull, the other went to Aberdeen, but I don't have any pictures of her, so can't say if she used the same upgraded hull as the Pilot #2. I would assume so but can't be certain. With the pictures you posted it's really hard to conclude. Obviously could be one of the three Pilots the Marines commissioned for the Diesel program, based on the engine bay layout, but was this turret original to this hull and if so was she then originally one of the two T43E1/M103A1 pilots? Detroit re used a lot of the same test vehicles for later upgrades so could be. Also could be an old early M103 hull used for initial layout testing and then someone put an old M103A1 turret on her before disposing of her as a monument tank.

Very long winded post, but wanted to explain why this was such an unusual tank. As with all research, more info always leads to more questions. Thanks for sharing. On my "List" now of tanks to see in person.

_________________
Joe_D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Walter_Sobchak
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:00 am
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

Thanks for the input Joe. We had a thread going on about this vehicle over at tank-net as well. This particular vehicle definitely has the forward gunners bulge indicative of an "A1", but there are no weld lines.

The M-60 in the background is in a fenced in area so I didn't try to get any good pictures of it. Jumping the fence of a National Guard facility just to get pictures of an M-60 didn't seem like a good idea to me. Anyway, there seem to be no shortage of M-60s to take pictures of here in Michigan. Earlier this week I took some of an M-60A3 and an M48A2C in front of an Amory south of Grand Rapids. The pics are at.
tanksandafv.blogspot.c...ng-mi.html

Pretty soon I should be getting better pictures of that M48A1 in Muskegon. I asked my father about it, he did not remember that specific program but he is intrigued now and wants to go check that tank out. He was the program manager on the AVDS-1790 RISE program way back in the 70's so he knows a good bit about the engine.

Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum