±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 735
Total: 735
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Home
04: News Archive
05: Community Forums
06: News Archive
07: Community Forums
08: Member Screenshots
09: Community Forums
10: Home
11: News Archive
12: Member Screenshots
13: Member Screenshots
14: Photo Gallery
15: Member Screenshots
16: Home
17: News Archive
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: News
21: Tell a Friend
22: Home
23: News Archive
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: News Archive
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Member Screenshots
32: Community Forums
33: Member Screenshots
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: Photo Gallery
39: Downloads
40: News
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: Home
44: Member Screenshots
45: Downloads
46: Home
47: Community Forums
48: Home
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: News Archive
53: Home
54: Community Forums
55: Downloads
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: News Archive
59: News
60: Community Forums
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Member Screenshots
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: Home
69: Community Forums
70: Home
71: Member Screenshots
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Home
78: Community Forums
79: Member Screenshots
80: Member Screenshots
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: Home
84: Community Forums
85: Home
86: News Archive
87: Home
88: Community Forums
89: Photo Gallery
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Downloads
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Member Screenshots
102: Home
103: Downloads
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: News Archive
108: News Archive
109: Photo Gallery
110: Photo Gallery
111: News Archive
112: Downloads
113: News Archive
114: Home
115: Downloads
116: Member Screenshots
117: Statistics
118: Member Screenshots
119: News Archive
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Photo Gallery
123: Community Forums
124: Photo Gallery
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Tell a Friend
129: Member Screenshots
130: Home
131: Photo Gallery
132: Home
133: News Archive
134: News Archive
135: Home
136: Member Screenshots
137: Photo Gallery
138: Member Screenshots
139: Downloads
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: Member Screenshots
143: Downloads
144: Statistics
145: Photo Gallery
146: Home
147: Home
148: Member Screenshots
149: Community Forums
150: Member Screenshots
151: Community Forums
152: Downloads
153: Community Forums
154: Home
155: News Archive
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Member Screenshots
160: Downloads
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Downloads
164: Photo Gallery
165: Photo Gallery
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Downloads
170: Downloads
171: LinkToUs
172: News Archive
173: Downloads
174: Home
175: Home
176: Photo Gallery
177: Home
178: Photo Gallery
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Member Screenshots
183: Home
184: Community Forums
185: Member Screenshots
186: Community Forums
187: Home
188: Member Screenshots
189: Statistics
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Photo Gallery
193: News Archive
194: Community Forums
195: Downloads
196: Photo Gallery
197: Home
198: Home
199: Community Forums
200: Member Screenshots
201: Statistics
202: Photo Gallery
203: News
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Home
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Home
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Downloads
216: Home
217: Home
218: Member Screenshots
219: Home
220: News
221: Community Forums
222: Your Account
223: News Archive
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Downloads
227: Home
228: News Archive
229: Photo Gallery
230: Community Forums
231: Member Screenshots
232: Community Forums
233: Home
234: Member Screenshots
235: Home
236: Community Forums
237: Downloads
238: Community Forums
239: Downloads
240: Community Forums
241: Home
242: Photo Gallery
243: Home
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Photo Gallery
249: Community Forums
250: Statistics
251: Community Forums
252: Member Screenshots
253: Photo Gallery
254: Home
255: Community Forums
256: Member Screenshots
257: Home
258: Downloads
259: News Archive
260: Member Screenshots
261: Statistics
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Photo Gallery
265: Community Forums
266: Home
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Member Screenshots
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Photo Gallery
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Home
276: Community Forums
277: News Archive
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: News Archive
288: Community Forums
289: Downloads
290: Community Forums
291: Photo Gallery
292: Home
293: Community Forums
294: News Archive
295: Member Screenshots
296: Community Forums
297: Member Screenshots
298: Community Forums
299: News Archive
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Member Screenshots
305: Downloads
306: Home
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Member Screenshots
310: Downloads
311: News Archive
312: Photo Gallery
313: Member Screenshots
314: Member Screenshots
315: Community Forums
316: News Archive
317: Community Forums
318: Member Screenshots
319: Photo Gallery
320: Downloads
321: Community Forums
322: Member Screenshots
323: News Archive
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Downloads
327: Member Screenshots
328: Member Screenshots
329: Photo Gallery
330: Member Screenshots
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Member Screenshots
334: Home
335: Member Screenshots
336: Member Screenshots
337: Home
338: News Archive
339: Community Forums
340: Downloads
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Photo Gallery
345: Home
346: Member Screenshots
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: News Archive
351: Member Screenshots
352: Photo Gallery
353: News Archive
354: Home
355: Photo Gallery
356: Member Screenshots
357: Community Forums
358: Member Screenshots
359: Home
360: Member Screenshots
361: Community Forums
362: News Archive
363: Community Forums
364: Community Forums
365: Community Forums
366: News Archive
367: Community Forums
368: News Archive
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: News Archive
373: News Archive
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Home
377: Community Forums
378: Home
379: Community Forums
380: Home
381: News Archive
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Home
385: Home
386: Home
387: Photo Gallery
388: Community Forums
389: Photo Gallery
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Member Screenshots
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Member Screenshots
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: News Archive
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Photo Gallery
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Downloads
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Member Screenshots
413: Member Screenshots
414: News Archive
415: Member Screenshots
416: Home
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Photo Gallery
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Photo Gallery
430: News Archive
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Home
434: Community Forums
435: Member Screenshots
436: Community Forums
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Member Screenshots
441: News Archive
442: Home
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: Member Screenshots
447: Home
448: Home
449: Member Screenshots
450: Home
451: Community Forums
452: Member Screenshots
453: Community Forums
454: Photo Gallery
455: Contact
456: News Archive
457: Member Screenshots
458: Home
459: Downloads
460: Member Screenshots
461: Photo Gallery
462: Photo Gallery
463: Community Forums
464: Home
465: Member Screenshots
466: Community Forums
467: Your Account
468: Home
469: Member Screenshots
470: Home
471: Member Screenshots
472: Member Screenshots
473: Home
474: Community Forums
475: Home
476: Photo Gallery
477: Member Screenshots
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Photo Gallery
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Photo Gallery
484: News Archive
485: Member Screenshots
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Photo Gallery
490: Home
491: Community Forums
492: Your Account
493: Community Forums
494: Photo Gallery
495: Home
496: Community Forums
497: News
498: Photo Gallery
499: Home
500: Home
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Downloads
504: Photo Gallery
505: Community Forums
506: Photo Gallery
507: Community Forums
508: Home
509: Home
510: Community Forums
511: Photo Gallery
512: Home
513: Home
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Downloads
517: Home
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Home
522: News Archive
523: Member Screenshots
524: Member Screenshots
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Member Screenshots
529: Downloads
530: Home
531: Home
532: Community Forums
533: Home
534: Home
535: Photo Gallery
536: Community Forums
537: News
538: Community Forums
539: Member Screenshots
540: Community Forums
541: News Archive
542: Member Screenshots
543: News Archive
544: Photo Gallery
545: Member Screenshots
546: Home
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Photo Gallery
550: Photo Gallery
551: Community Forums
552: Home
553: Member Screenshots
554: Member Screenshots
555: Community Forums
556: Downloads
557: News Archive
558: Photo Gallery
559: Community Forums
560: Photo Gallery
561: Member Screenshots
562: Member Screenshots
563: Member Screenshots
564: Community Forums
565: News Archive
566: Member Screenshots
567: Community Forums
568: Home
569: Member Screenshots
570: Photo Gallery
571: Photo Gallery
572: Photo Gallery
573: Member Screenshots
574: Member Screenshots
575: Home
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Downloads
579: News
580: Home
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Home
584: Community Forums
585: Downloads
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: News Archive
589: Photo Gallery
590: Home
591: News Archive
592: Home
593: News Archive
594: Community Forums
595: Member Screenshots
596: Community Forums
597: Member Screenshots
598: Member Screenshots
599: Member Screenshots
600: Photo Gallery
601: Downloads
602: Community Forums
603: Member Screenshots
604: Home
605: Home
606: Member Screenshots
607: Member Screenshots
608: Home
609: Community Forums
610: Home
611: Home
612: Photo Gallery
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Downloads
620: Community Forums
621: Photo Gallery
622: Home
623: Community Forums
624: Downloads
625: Community Forums
626: Downloads
627: Member Screenshots
628: Community Forums
629: Home
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Photo Gallery
634: Community Forums
635: Photo Gallery
636: Home
637: Photo Gallery
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Home
641: Community Forums
642: Home
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Downloads
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Member Screenshots
650: Photo Gallery
651: Statistics
652: Home
653: Home
654: Community Forums
655: Photo Gallery
656: Photo Gallery
657: Photo Gallery
658: Home
659: Photo Gallery
660: Home
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Downloads
664: Downloads
665: Home
666: Photo Gallery
667: Home
668: News Archive
669: Member Screenshots
670: Member Screenshots
671: News Archive
672: Home
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: Downloads
677: Community Forums
678: Community Forums
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: Downloads
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Downloads
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Photo Gallery
691: LinkToUs
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: News Archive
695: Member Screenshots
696: Downloads
697: News Archive
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: Statistics
701: Community Forums
702: Community Forums
703: Member Screenshots
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Downloads
707: Community Forums
708: Photo Gallery
709: Community Forums
710: Community Forums
711: Photo Gallery
712: News Archive
713: Photo Gallery
714: Member Screenshots
715: Member Screenshots
716: Member Screenshots
717: Community Forums
718: Member Screenshots
719: Photo Gallery
720: Community Forums
721: Member Screenshots
722: Community Forums
723: Downloads
724: Home
725: Member Screenshots
726: Community Forums
727: Member Screenshots
728: Member Screenshots
729: Community Forums
730: Home
731: Community Forums
732: News Archive
733: Tell a Friend
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Walter_Sobchak
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:47 pm
Post subject: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

Today I drove over to Dowagiac Michigan to take some pictures of the M103 tank that is out in front of the National Guard building at 700 W Prairie Ronde St. It's in pretty rough shape, but still quite interesting. From what I can tell, this is a former Marine vehicle and it was an M103A2. The back of the vehicle is quite strange, everything to do with the powerpack is missing, including the air cleaners and the top and rear engine decking. They have welded some sheet metal over the hole. It's pretty obvious in the pictures. Also, one of the return rollers is missing. This does not seem to be an uncommon thing for display vehicles. In Muskegon MI I found a M48A1 on display that is missing 3 out of it's ten return rollers. I suspect that since later models of the M48/M60 family of vehicles had only three return rollers per side, a few missing on the older vehicles with five per side was not a big deal. The pictures are available here. I am not a very sophisticated photographer, these were taken with a regular consumer grade digital camera. I have to remember to bring a small ladder next time so I can get shots from a higher perspective. Still, I hope people find these worth looking at.
Back to top
View user's profile
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2067
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:42 pm
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

Walter,

If there wasn't snow all over the M48A1 when you took the pictures of her at Muskegon you might have noticed she is very unique. Looks like she was the test rig for the Teledyne/Continental installation of the AVDS-1790-2C/CD-850 combination. This set up did not require the extensive cutting and welding that they used when making the M48A3/A5 rear decks and grills. Was marketed as a much simpler and cheaper solution to upgrade older M48 fleets. Taiwan used this set up when making their CM12's from M48A1's.

Rear Hull

CM12

Probably drove/towed her right over from the factory, since it's right next door but now part of L3 systems.

_________________
Joe_D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
ChrisC
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

Did they also do this conversion on M-47's?
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Costas_TT
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 15, 2012
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:42 pm
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

As far as I know, Spain, Iran and Pakistan, the only users of the dieselized M47M adopted the BMY package, with the raised rear hull roof. The commercially offered upgrades by Urdan/IMI and OTO-Melara were similar.
The MTU MB 837 Ea-500 engine was tested in the M47 and retained the original hull roof, but was not adopted.
NAPCO also offered a Detroit Diesel 12V71TA engine for upgrading older M48s, retaining the original decking (which was modified when Astra SpA. fitted the same engine to the M47).
In addition, I seem to recall MTU offering their diesel for the M48 as well, similarly without changing the rear decking.

_________________
1/72 and 1/76 scale fanatic.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Walter_Sobchak
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:48 am
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

- Joe_D
Walter,

If there wasn't snow all over the M48A1 when you took the pictures of her at Muskegon you might have noticed she is very unique. Looks like she was the test rig for the Teledyne/Continental installation of the AVDS-1790-2C/CD-850 combination. This set up did not require the extensive cutting and welding that they used when making the M48A3/A5 rear decks and grills. Was marketed as a much simpler and cheaper solution to upgrade older M48 fleets. Taiwan used this set up when making their CM12's from M48A1's.

Rear Hull

CM12

Probably drove/towed her right over from the factory, since it's right next door but now part of L3 systems.


I am in Muskegon fairly regularly, I need to stop by and get some better pictures of that tank. My father worked at the Getty St. plant for 40+ years and still lives in the area. I did not know that an AVDS-1790-2 could fit in the older style bay of the M48 and M48A1. I just checked my copy of Hunnicutt's "Patton," he describes the conversion on page 402. I guess I never read that far into the book! I'll have to see if my father remembers this program. Thank you for pointing this out!
Back to top
View user's profile
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2067
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:45 pm
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

Walter,

Your M103 pictures are most interesting, unfortunately it took a while for me to open your blog site (Very poor internet on my behalf). Also noticed an M60A3 in the background. What's the story on her???

About your M103, The turret looks like it is from an M103A1, which is basically the same as an A2 other than the A2's FCS was upgraded to Metric over Yards, requiring a change in the Telescope and ballistic computer. Does not appear to be an A2 turret because there are no provisions for the AN/VSS-1 searchlight, which A2's had. Leads me to believe she does not have the upgraded FCS of the A2, which the computer was converted to metric and also modified for use with the searchlight. Telescope was also changed to metric with A2. Cupola is also the A1 variation, basically the Chrysler version from the M103 but modified to the simple external firing flex mount found on A1 and A2's.

About the hull, It is a very early T43E1/M103 hull. Come to this conclusion based on the following:

Drivers hatch is of the small type, this is evident by the lack of support bars used with the larger type, which were required much like the M48A1 and later models to clear the periscopes. Cannot tell by the pictures you posted but it also appears not to have the drivers M24 IR viewer modification, which was on the M103A1's and later. The small drivers hatch based on Mr. Hunnicutts' book "Firepower" is unclear on how many were produced before switching to the larger version, stating some sources that the first 60 had them, which I believe is accurate.

Compensating idler and arms are of the early M103 type, much like M48/M48A1's. These arms and hull attachment points were identified as weak points in the suspension, pron to damage, when the M103A1 upgrade was created these arms were replaced by the same heavier arms used in the M48A2's and later. They also welded an extension boss to the hull to adapt these arms, much like they did for the M48A3/A5 hulls that were upgraded from M48A1's. The early adjusting link and arm not having the offset was the first thing I noticed that led me to inspect your pictures closer.

Rear towing pintle, this makes it very interesting, since the pintle is of the very early type. The standard model for M103/103A1's was bolted to a mount and was detachable, having a stowage bracket located below the left taillight assembly. Tanks with the earlier pintle also had the two piece travel lock instead of the later three piece model found on later M103/103A1 models. Cannot tell with your tank since the upper half of the rear hull has been cut off to convert for AVDS-1790 installation. To put in perspective, of the 60 early small hatch tanks produced, not all had this pintle or three piece travel lock. Only images I've seen of the early pintle were on the pilot T43's and T43E1's.

Being this tank is in Michigan, home of oddities, and based on all the above, I'm thinking she might have been the test rig to do the feasibility testing of installing the Diesel engine for the USMC. The modified rear hull is non-standard and is lacking all the attachment points for both the rear deck and top grills found on the M103A2. What's interesting is she does have an A1 turret, although the range finder blisters are not original, coming from an M48/M60 turret. Maybe part of the local restoration. Also unusual and maybe because of the images you posted, but the M103A1 turret bulge associated with moving the gunner and sights forward required cutting the turret and casting an insert bulge and aperture. This procedure left obvious weld lines which I cannot make out in your pictures. Million dollar question is what is she? M103A1 turret on an early M103/T43E1 hull is what I can tell, but doesn't make sense. Two pilot T43E2/M103A1's were made, Pilot #2 went to Knox and images show she had the later large hatch hull, the other went to Aberdeen, but I don't have any pictures of her, so can't say if she used the same upgraded hull as the Pilot #2. I would assume so but can't be certain. With the pictures you posted it's really hard to conclude. Obviously could be one of the three Pilots the Marines commissioned for the Diesel program, based on the engine bay layout, but was this turret original to this hull and if so was she then originally one of the two T43E1/M103A1 pilots? Detroit re used a lot of the same test vehicles for later upgrades so could be. Also could be an old early M103 hull used for initial layout testing and then someone put an old M103A1 turret on her before disposing of her as a monument tank.

Very long winded post, but wanted to explain why this was such an unusual tank. As with all research, more info always leads to more questions. Thanks for sharing. On my "List" now of tanks to see in person.

_________________
Joe_D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Walter_Sobchak
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2013
Posts: 122

PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:00 am
Post subject: Re: M-103 on display in Dowagiac Michigan

Thanks for the input Joe. We had a thread going on about this vehicle over at tank-net as well. This particular vehicle definitely has the forward gunners bulge indicative of an "A1", but there are no weld lines.

The M-60 in the background is in a fenced in area so I didn't try to get any good pictures of it. Jumping the fence of a National Guard facility just to get pictures of an M-60 didn't seem like a good idea to me. Anyway, there seem to be no shortage of M-60s to take pictures of here in Michigan. Earlier this week I took some of an M-60A3 and an M48A2C in front of an Amory south of Grand Rapids. The pics are at.
tanksandafv.blogspot.c...ng-mi.html

Pretty soon I should be getting better pictures of that M48A1 in Muskegon. I asked my father about it, he did not remember that specific program but he is intrigued now and wants to go check that tank out. He was the program manager on the AVDS-1790 RISE program way back in the 70's so he knows a good bit about the engine.

Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum