±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 163
Total: 163
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Photo Gallery
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: CPGlang
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: News
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Home
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Downloads
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Home
43: Home
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Downloads
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Home
65: Community Forums
66: Downloads
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Home
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Downloads
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: CPGlang
87: Member Screenshots
88: CPGlang
89: Member Screenshots
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: CPGlang
95: Community Forums
96: Downloads
97: CPGlang
98: Community Forums
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Home
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: CPGlang
115: Photo Gallery
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Photo Gallery
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: CPGlang
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Downloads
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: News Archive
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Your Account
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Photo Gallery
151: Photo Gallery
152: Community Forums
153: Home
154: News Archive
155: CPGlang
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: CPGlang
162: Home
163: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
MAP (Military Assistance Program)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mikek92888
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:14 am
Post subject: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

I have done some research at the National Archives on Sherman based exports from MAP (Military Assistance Program). It is by no means complete and leaves a lot of questions since it does not break down what type of Sherman's were exported other than TNKMEM4 or M4A3. I assume most of the TNKMEM4 were probably M4A1 76mm. It also doesn't list M32 which might be included in the TNKMEN4.
I have not yet found any exports prior to 1963. There are some surprises like Indochina (Vietnam) and Tunisia getting M74 ARV's

Country Year Amount

M4 Sherman

Belgium 1963 85
Portugal 1963 19
Denmark 1963 8
France 1963 1484
Indochina 1963 2
Iran 1963 110
Italy 1963 28
Netherlands 1963 98
Turkey 1963 3
Undefined Code 1963 599


M74

Austria 1963 2
Belgium 1963 165
Brazil 1963 3
Chile 1963 3
Denmark 1963 1
France 1963 257
Germany 1963 156
Greece 1963 28
Indochina 1963 5
Indonesia 1963 2
Iran 1963 43
Iraq 1963 1
Italy 1963 118
Japan 1963 15
Libya 1963 1
Netherlands 1963 20
Pakistan 1963 35
Portugal 1963 13
S. Korea 1963 15
Spain 1963 24
Taiwan 1963 7
Tunisia 1963 4
Turkey 1963 168
Turkey 1965 51
Uruguay 1963 1
Back to top
View user's profile
Tichenor
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Dec 06, 2007
Posts: 461
Location: Antwerp
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:59 am
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

These seems very strange to me as by 1963 Belgian Shermans where already obsolete and replaced by M47's. M74 could be correct they where used until the 80's.

Michel

_________________
www.afvregister.org
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:49 pm
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

Your information is not correct concerning the dates and numbers.

There is a article written by Hanno Spoelstra about the Sherman tanks in service with the Dutch army.

2 batches where supplied under de MDAP to the Netherlands.
38 Shermans version M4A1 and a batch of 50 M4A1E9, all 75mm

By 1958 all Shermans tanks had been replaced by the British Centurion.

Concerning the recovery versions, I could find no data.
However by by 1968 the Centurion tanks where replaced by the Leopard 1.
So very likely that most, perhaps even all, Sherman recovery variants by then where replaced by the recovery variant of the Leopard 1

MichelK

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:04 pm
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

it seems curious to me too, as the website "charsfrancais.net" mentions that the Sherman was used in France until 1965. The M4A4Ts were converted from M4A4s in 1952-1953. Note that the AMX-13 light tank was developed in 1953, and the AMX-30 in 1965, so there was no need of Sherman tanks in 1963 in France.

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
mikek92888
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:24 am
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

I also question as to the accuracy of some of the documents that I downloaded from NARA. I'm also wondering if some of the MAP Shermans delivered were to be used as parts spares (maybe for the M74)or even target range tanks and were never put into service.
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:11 pm
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

I also question as to the accuracy of some of the documents that I downloaded from NARA. I'm also wondering if some of the MAP Shermans delivered were to be used as parts spares (maybe for the M74)or even target range tanks and were never put into service.


The Dutch army after the war would not have stripped new tanks for spares.
Direct after the war about 250 Shermans where salvaged/rescued from scrapyard stocks of the Commonwealth forces and these where in a bad condition.

So there was no need for target range tanks also. because enough scrap standing around. Mr. Green

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
mikek92888
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:54 pm
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

The other possibility is that these were giving to the Netherlands to be transferred to another country I.e. Israel
Back to top
View user's profile
mikek92888
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:33 pm
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

aad.archives.gov/aad/r...141,217436

aad.archives.gov/aad/r...090,209505
Back to top
View user's profile
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Fri May 02, 2014 7:56 am
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

I've come across some of these MDAP records and they should be used with considerable caution, as some list what is intended to be delivered, others what is delivered and they are not particularily precise when it comes to the types of vehicles.

Danmark got 8 Sherman M4A3E4 and one M32B1 in 1952, but it is not the first time I've seen the latter listed under M74. In fact, M74 figures in the documents regarding planned deliveries, but apparently you got what was available in terms of recovery vehicles.

I always try to confirm the delivery data in the MDAP records with data from Danish Army Archives to see what was actually delivered.

With regards to the date, my guess is that the document lists what have been delivered up to 1963 rather than what was delivered in 1963
Back to top
View user's profile
mikek92888
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 15, 2006
Posts: 50

PostPosted: Sat May 03, 2014 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

I was thinking that the date of 1963 was maybe the closeout of the delivery of something to that effect.
Back to top
View user's profile
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 2:18 pm
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

- mikek92888
I was thinking that the date of 1963 was maybe the closeout of the delivery of something to that effect.


IIRC there was some change in the military aid program in the early 1960ies when the name changes from Mutual Defense Assistance Program (MDAP) to Military Aid (or assistance?) Program (MAP).
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:34 pm
Post subject: Re: MAP (Military Assistance Program)

I have been studying the figures of Sherman supplied to the Dutch ..... and still can't figure it out Neutral

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum