±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 628
Total: 628
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Member Screenshots
04: Community Forums
05: Home
06: Home
07: Home
08: Downloads
09: Community Forums
10: Downloads
11: Community Forums
12: Home
13: Home
14: Home
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Home
21: Home
22: Community Forums
23: News Archive
24: Downloads
25: Photo Gallery
26: Community Forums
27: Photo Gallery
28: Home
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Photo Gallery
33: Home
34: Downloads
35: Home
36: Your Account
37: Photo Gallery
38: Photo Gallery
39: Member Screenshots
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Photo Gallery
43: Photo Gallery
44: Downloads
45: Community Forums
46: Downloads
47: Downloads
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Photo Gallery
51: Photo Gallery
52: Photo Gallery
53: Community Forums
54: Home
55: Downloads
56: Home
57: News Archive
58: Statistics
59: Photo Gallery
60: Home
61: Photo Gallery
62: Photo Gallery
63: Photo Gallery
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Photo Gallery
67: Home
68: Downloads
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Downloads
72: Home
73: Photo Gallery
74: Downloads
75: Photo Gallery
76: Photo Gallery
77: Downloads
78: Home
79: Photo Gallery
80: Photo Gallery
81: Community Forums
82: Photo Gallery
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Community Forums
86: Home
87: Home
88: Community Forums
89: Statistics
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Photo Gallery
94: News Archive
95: Photo Gallery
96: Downloads
97: Home
98: News
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Downloads
102: Community Forums
103: Home
104: Home
105: Photo Gallery
106: Community Forums
107: Home
108: Home
109: Home
110: Photo Gallery
111: Photo Gallery
112: News
113: Photo Gallery
114: Community Forums
115: Home
116: Home
117: Downloads
118: Photo Gallery
119: Downloads
120: News Archive
121: Downloads
122: Community Forums
123: Photo Gallery
124: Photo Gallery
125: Photo Gallery
126: Statistics
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Home
131: Downloads
132: Community Forums
133: Downloads
134: Photo Gallery
135: Home
136: Photo Gallery
137: Photo Gallery
138: Home
139: Downloads
140: Statistics
141: Statistics
142: Community Forums
143: Photo Gallery
144: Member Screenshots
145: Statistics
146: Photo Gallery
147: Photo Gallery
148: Photo Gallery
149: Home
150: Photo Gallery
151: Downloads
152: Photo Gallery
153: Downloads
154: Downloads
155: Photo Gallery
156: Photo Gallery
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Photo Gallery
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: Photo Gallery
163: Photo Gallery
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Member Screenshots
168: Photo Gallery
169: Photo Gallery
170: Home
171: Downloads
172: Photo Gallery
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Member Screenshots
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Downloads
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Photo Gallery
183: Community Forums
184: Member Screenshots
185: Home
186: Photo Gallery
187: Photo Gallery
188: Photo Gallery
189: Downloads
190: Photo Gallery
191: Photo Gallery
192: Downloads
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Photo Gallery
197: Photo Gallery
198: News Archive
199: Community Forums
200: Downloads
201: News
202: Downloads
203: Member Screenshots
204: Photo Gallery
205: Downloads
206: Community Forums
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Home
210: Photo Gallery
211: Photo Gallery
212: News
213: Community Forums
214: Photo Gallery
215: Your Account
216: Community Forums
217: Home
218: Downloads
219: Home
220: Home
221: Community Forums
222: Member Screenshots
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Downloads
226: Community Forums
227: Photo Gallery
228: Community Forums
229: Member Screenshots
230: News
231: Home
232: Member Screenshots
233: Photo Gallery
234: Member Screenshots
235: Home
236: Member Screenshots
237: Community Forums
238: Home
239: Photo Gallery
240: Home
241: Home
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Photo Gallery
248: Photo Gallery
249: Photo Gallery
250: Community Forums
251: Photo Gallery
252: Photo Gallery
253: Community Forums
254: Home
255: Photo Gallery
256: Downloads
257: Community Forums
258: Downloads
259: Photo Gallery
260: Photo Gallery
261: Your Account
262: Home
263: Member Screenshots
264: Home
265: Member Screenshots
266: Photo Gallery
267: Community Forums
268: Photo Gallery
269: News
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: News Archive
273: Photo Gallery
274: Home
275: Member Screenshots
276: Member Screenshots
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Photo Gallery
280: Community Forums
281: Member Screenshots
282: Photo Gallery
283: Home
284: Downloads
285: Home
286: Community Forums
287: Photo Gallery
288: Photo Gallery
289: Community Forums
290: News
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Home
294: Community Forums
295: Home
296: Community Forums
297: Home
298: Photo Gallery
299: Community Forums
300: Photo Gallery
301: Photo Gallery
302: Photo Gallery
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: Downloads
306: Photo Gallery
307: Photo Gallery
308: Home
309: Home
310: Photo Gallery
311: Photo Gallery
312: Photo Gallery
313: Downloads
314: Home
315: Photo Gallery
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Member Screenshots
319: Member Screenshots
320: Community Forums
321: Photo Gallery
322: Photo Gallery
323: Downloads
324: Home
325: Downloads
326: Photo Gallery
327: Photo Gallery
328: Photo Gallery
329: Photo Gallery
330: Home
331: Photo Gallery
332: Home
333: Downloads
334: Community Forums
335: Downloads
336: Home
337: Photo Gallery
338: Photo Gallery
339: Home
340: Home
341: Photo Gallery
342: Member Screenshots
343: Home
344: Photo Gallery
345: Community Forums
346: Downloads
347: Community Forums
348: Downloads
349: Photo Gallery
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Home
353: Community Forums
354: Home
355: Member Screenshots
356: Photo Gallery
357: Photo Gallery
358: Community Forums
359: Photo Gallery
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: News
363: News Archive
364: Photo Gallery
365: Photo Gallery
366: Home
367: Member Screenshots
368: Downloads
369: Photo Gallery
370: Photo Gallery
371: Community Forums
372: Photo Gallery
373: Photo Gallery
374: LinkToUs
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Photo Gallery
379: Photo Gallery
380: Photo Gallery
381: Home
382: Photo Gallery
383: Home
384: Downloads
385: Downloads
386: News
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Photo Gallery
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Home
395: Photo Gallery
396: Contact
397: Downloads
398: Photo Gallery
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Home
402: Photo Gallery
403: Downloads
404: Home
405: Statistics
406: Photo Gallery
407: Home
408: Photo Gallery
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Photo Gallery
412: Photo Gallery
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Member Screenshots
416: Community Forums
417: Photo Gallery
418: Member Screenshots
419: Home
420: Member Screenshots
421: Home
422: Home
423: Photo Gallery
424: Photo Gallery
425: Photo Gallery
426: Photo Gallery
427: Home
428: Photo Gallery
429: Photo Gallery
430: Community Forums
431: Home
432: Photo Gallery
433: Downloads
434: Photo Gallery
435: Statistics
436: Home
437: Photo Gallery
438: Community Forums
439: Member Screenshots
440: Downloads
441: Community Forums
442: Photo Gallery
443: Photo Gallery
444: Member Screenshots
445: Home
446: Community Forums
447: Home
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Your Account
451: Home
452: Statistics
453: Home
454: News Archive
455: Community Forums
456: Home
457: Photo Gallery
458: Community Forums
459: Home
460: Member Screenshots
461: Photo Gallery
462: Photo Gallery
463: Member Screenshots
464: Member Screenshots
465: Photo Gallery
466: Community Forums
467: Home
468: Photo Gallery
469: Community Forums
470: Statistics
471: Photo Gallery
472: Home
473: Photo Gallery
474: Home
475: Community Forums
476: News Archive
477: Home
478: Statistics
479: Home
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Home
483: Community Forums
484: Home
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Photo Gallery
488: Photo Gallery
489: Downloads
490: Photo Gallery
491: Downloads
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Photo Gallery
495: Member Screenshots
496: Photo Gallery
497: Photo Gallery
498: Photo Gallery
499: Photo Gallery
500: Home
501: Photo Gallery
502: Community Forums
503: Photo Gallery
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Home
507: Community Forums
508: Downloads
509: Community Forums
510: Home
511: Photo Gallery
512: Community Forums
513: News Archive
514: Community Forums
515: Photo Gallery
516: Member Screenshots
517: Member Screenshots
518: Home
519: Home
520: Home
521: Photo Gallery
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Statistics
526: Photo Gallery
527: Home
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Photo Gallery
531: Home
532: Home
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Statistics
539: Photo Gallery
540: Photo Gallery
541: Photo Gallery
542: Home
543: Photo Gallery
544: Community Forums
545: Downloads
546: Community Forums
547: Photo Gallery
548: Home
549: Photo Gallery
550: Photo Gallery
551: Home
552: Photo Gallery
553: Photo Gallery
554: Member Screenshots
555: Home
556: Photo Gallery
557: Photo Gallery
558: Home
559: Community Forums
560: Home
561: Photo Gallery
562: Home
563: Home
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Member Screenshots
568: Photo Gallery
569: Community Forums
570: Photo Gallery
571: Photo Gallery
572: Member Screenshots
573: Downloads
574: Photo Gallery
575: Photo Gallery
576: Community Forums
577: Home
578: Community Forums
579: Photo Gallery
580: Photo Gallery
581: Photo Gallery
582: Photo Gallery
583: Photo Gallery
584: Home
585: Photo Gallery
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Home
589: Member Screenshots
590: Photo Gallery
591: Photo Gallery
592: Photo Gallery
593: Community Forums
594: Home
595: Community Forums
596: Photo Gallery
597: Community Forums
598: Photo Gallery
599: Home
600: Member Screenshots
601: Home
602: Photo Gallery
603: News Archive
604: Home
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Photo Gallery
608: Photo Gallery
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Photo Gallery
612: Community Forums
613: Home
614: Community Forums
615: Statistics
616: Home
617: Community Forums
618: Home
619: Home
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Photo Gallery
623: Home
624: Community Forums
625: News Archive
626: Community Forums
627: Member Screenshots
628: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
panther found in basement?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JG300-Ascout
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 05, 2005
Posts: 6258
Location: Cyberspace
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 5:56 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

- Rikard_Hufschmied
It's also quite apparent that local authorities have been uncomfortable with Klaus Dieter Flick for quite some time and adopted the "better to be safe than sorry" stance and hence taken action accordingly.

This in combination with the "Nazi-Art" affair has clearly been a thumb in the eye for some, and the "closet Nazi" rumors have certainly made matters even worse.

You have to take in to consideration that Third Reich symbols in private hands are outright outlawed in the Federal Republic, even Waffenamt stampings are considered eagle-swastika and the swastika has to be permanently removed.

The second world war is a touchy subject in Germany, with good right if you ask me, so I will not be surprised if they go after Klaus Dieter with everything they've got.

We need not worry about the Panther being cut up, they know the value of it. If not returned, which I doubt, it will end up in a museum for sure.


That being said (and quite rightly, too), I know from personal experience that there's a good deal of contraband lurking in footlockers under beds, in basements/attics, etc. Being shown such items is both interesting and chilling.

_________________
"All facts go to clearly prove that Shades is a thrice-cursed traitor & mentally deranged person steeped in inveterate enmity toward mankind"
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Asbjoern
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Nov 08, 2012
Posts: 39
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 12:42 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

- Rikard_Hufschmied

You have to take in to consideration that Third Reich symbols in private hands are outright outlawed in the Federal Republic, even Waffenamt stampings are considered eagle-swastika and the swastika has to be permanently removed.


Sorry, thats a way too far ... the posession of swastika-bearing stuff is not prohibited/illigal in Germany, only to show them in public! This is basing on the §86StGB (criminal code) making it illigal to show forbidden symbols in general for propagandistic use... the only legal context you can show Nazi symbols in Germany is for scientific use or in film/ theatre. Original stuff must not be denazified too, its legal to offer them in public with the symbols covered...

Jens
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:13 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

- Asbjoern
- Rikard_Hufschmied

You have to take in to consideration that Third Reich symbols in private hands are outright outlawed in the Federal Republic, even Waffenamt stampings are considered eagle-swastika and the swastika has to be permanently removed.


Sorry, thats a way too far ... the posession of swastika-bearing stuff is not prohibited/illigal in Germany, only to show them in public! This is basing on the §86StGB (criminal code) making it illigal to show forbidden symbols in general for propagandistic use... the only legal context you can show Nazi symbols in Germany is for scientific use or in film/ theatre. Original stuff must not be denazified too, its legal to offer them in public with the symbols covered...

Jens


Alright, noted. I'd misinterpreted the legislation regarding nazi-symbols. It's just that I've seen so much de-nazified stuff (even waffenamt stampings) come out of Germany that I believed it to be the case. Possibly an over zealous approach by dealers not wanting to be even close of over stepping.

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
JG300-Ascout
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 05, 2005
Posts: 6258
Location: Cyberspace
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:29 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

Nevertheless, it's always disconcerting to find a two volume set of "Adolf Hitler In Documenten" prominently displayed on the bookshelf. Two business associates of mine were sons (one German, one Dutch) of Waffen SS Troopers (one claiming fairly innocuous duty in Organization Todt on the Atlantic Wall) More graphic items were stowed privately out of public view. I suppose a basic conflict of family pride vs. cultural ambivilance.

_________________
"All facts go to clearly prove that Shades is a thrice-cursed traitor & mentally deranged person steeped in inveterate enmity toward mankind"
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
horrocks
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Nov 20, 2008
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:52 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

I am in a slight muddle because I thought the ex-London/REME Panther G was in the collection of a Herr Frick (sic?) in Solingen. Solingen is nowhere near Kiel. Is this a different Frick/Flick, and a different Panther?
Back to top
View user's profile
Walter
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 09, 2010
Posts: 618
Location: Arnhem
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:24 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

No the Flick Panther was only restored in Solingen.
Back to top
View user's profile
WimD.
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 11, 2007
Posts: 118
Location: The Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:24 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

I found a picture of the "underground garage":
Back to top
View user's profile
vw82
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 28, 2012
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 6:23 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

I suspect the owner just found a very cheap way to have his Panther leave its garage/basement parking place.
Now that's its "above ground", and once everyone quits getting excited & decide its all legal he can display it somewhere else.
All cost paid for by the tax payer!

My Guess Only!
Back to top
View user's profile
vw82
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 28, 2012
Posts: 46

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

Its been very quite for the last month.
The news is that a "Petition" has been going around the area to have all his "collection" returned & the damage done to the roads be repaired. Signed by over 800 residents.
His lawyer states that the local government has known about his hobby for over 10 years and the collection had been demilitarized as required.
An interesting development is that the Bundeswehr /German Army helped repair the Panther's engine for the tune of €28,317, which was promptly payed in full.

In German...
www.shz.de/lokales/kie...62446.html


Last edited by vw82 on Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
Asbjoern
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Nov 08, 2012
Posts: 39
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:32 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

... another press release states that the experts hired by the prosecutor found out that all three items are not demilitarized according to todays law and that the owner is not able to document the legal ownership at all as he has no purchase contract ...if so the machinery would be state property anyway as all "Reichs- stuff" left behind in the boundaries of Germany never became private property without officially sold by the German government. If the stuff was in other countries in May 45 it became property of this country / the landowner it was found.
Maybe he has only a bill for buying "fourtysomewhat tons of scrap metal" ...

Most possible it will stay very quiet for a long time as the lawyers from both sides are already in close combat ...

Jens
Back to top
View user's profile
Michel_Krauss
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Oct 30, 2009
Posts: 953
Location: Zuid-Holland, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:05 pm
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

- Asbjoern
... another press release states that the experts hired by the prosecutor found out that all three items are not demilitarized according to todays law and that the owner is not able to document the legal ownership at all as he has no purchase contract ...if so the machinery would be state property anyway as all "Reichs- stuff" left behind in the boundaries of Germany never became private property without officially sold by the German government. If the stuff was in other countries in May 45 it became property of this country / the landowner it was found.
Maybe he has only a bill for buying "fourtysomewhat tons of scrap metal" ...

Most possible it will stay very quiet for a long time as the lawyers from both sides are already in close combat ...

Jens


If the above is correct, Flick will get the Panther back

Most likely it was demilitarized according the old laws, the new laws only apply to new items
You can not create a new law that replaces an old one and then say all the previous items are illegal
The owner only has to show that it was correctly done and aproved at the time of the old laws.

And concerning the ownership, about all of the privatly owned tanks were sold as scrap by the goverment and if he can proof he boughted 45tons of scrap ... no problem
He just restored a 45ton scrap metal Panther, that's not against the law

_________________
I'm Not Crazy, I'm Just Not You
Back to top
View user's profile
Pzkpfw-e
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 21, 2010
Posts: 1202

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:05 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

Does he just dig out the old copy of "After the Battle" showing the scrap being taken out of the scrapyard on Cock Lane, Surrey?
Back to top
View user's profile
Asbjoern
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Nov 08, 2012
Posts: 39
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:47 am
Post subject: Re: panther found in basement?

I think the main problem in this case is not the tank (+gun+torpedo) itself but the "political" thing in the background. The prosecutor thought she had a good weapon to hurt the "old nazi stuff collector" as they could not find something to sue him in connection with the sculptures and thought the public will celebrate her for secruing it from the threats of evil warefare in the hands of an old fool ... now she gets aware that the case is not that clear and Mr. Flick has many supporters - so thes try to find other evidenc of breaking the law to stay on the right side ... therefor the claim of "no real cartificate of possession"...

Most to all aroured vehicles in the hands of private people - even those officially sold by the German Amry before this practise was stopped some years ago - will be not demilled correctly after todays opinion ... and many will have gone through so many hands that some "titles" are lost.

Jens
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum