±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 268
Total: 268
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Member Screenshots
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Member Screenshots
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Photo Gallery
10: Community Forums
11: Member Screenshots
12: News Archive
13: Member Screenshots
14: Home
15: Downloads
16: Photo Gallery
17: Photo Gallery
18: Home
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Downloads
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Photo Gallery
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Member Screenshots
32: Community Forums
33: Home
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Downloads
38: Home
39: Downloads
40: News
41: Home
42: Community Forums
43: Downloads
44: News
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Photo Gallery
50: Community Forums
51: Downloads
52: Home
53: Your Account
54: News
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: News
59: Community Forums
60: Downloads
61: News
62: Downloads
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Downloads
66: Home
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Downloads
70: Home
71: Downloads
72: Community Forums
73: Home
74: Community Forums
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Statistics
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Statistics
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: LinkToUs
86: Community Forums
87: Home
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Home
93: Community Forums
94: Search
95: LinkToUs
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Home
99: Your Account
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Downloads
103: Member Screenshots
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: Home
107: Statistics
108: Community Forums
109: Home
110: Downloads
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Home
115: News Archive
116: Photo Gallery
117: Home
118: Downloads
119: Community Forums
120: Downloads
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Home
124: Home
125: Home
126: Home
127: Home
128: Community Forums
129: Member Screenshots
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Downloads
135: Community Forums
136: Downloads
137: Home
138: News Archive
139: Member Screenshots
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: News
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Contact
147: Home
148: Photo Gallery
149: Home
150: Community Forums
151: Photo Gallery
152: Downloads
153: Statistics
154: Community Forums
155: Treasury
156: Community Forums
157: Downloads
158: Community Forums
159: Your Account
160: Downloads
161: Photo Gallery
162: Home
163: Supporters
164: Photo Gallery
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Photo Gallery
169: Photo Gallery
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Downloads
175: News Archive
176: Home
177: Photo Gallery
178: Photo Gallery
179: Community Forums
180: Home
181: Home
182: Community Forums
183: Home
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Community Forums
187: Home
188: Member Screenshots
189: Home
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: Photo Gallery
193: Community Forums
194: Home
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Photo Gallery
198: Member Screenshots
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Downloads
202: Photo Gallery
203: Home
204: Community Forums
205: Photo Gallery
206: Community Forums
207: Downloads
208: Home
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Member Screenshots
212: Photo Gallery
213: Community Forums
214: Your Account
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: News
221: Member Screenshots
222: Member Screenshots
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: News
227: Community Forums
228: Member Screenshots
229: Community Forums
230: Downloads
231: Home
232: Downloads
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: News Archive
238: Downloads
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Home
242: Community Forums
243: Home
244: Home
245: Your Account
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Home
251: Home
252: Downloads
253: Community Forums
254: Photo Gallery
255: Community Forums
256: Your Account
257: Photo Gallery
258: Community Forums
259: Photo Gallery
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Downloads
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID... :: Archived
A general meeting place for all pilots!
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Revive this topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  Officer's Club

Topic Archived View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:45 am
Post subject: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

[img][/img]
This is a Cessna L19 Bird Dog (I believe). I am trying to find information out on this particular bird for a friend and this is my first stop on displaying this picture on as many mediums and sources as possible. I can't seem to find this bird listed on Joe Baughers site of aircraft serial numbers. Anyone have any other ideas where to search? I notice a small "Blackhorse" symbol at the top of the tail, similar to 11th ACR's. Anyone with clues can contact me via here or at my PM inbox.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
XcalibeR
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 11, 2005
Posts: 358

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:40 am
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

I dunno about that specific plane, but I can tell you a few things about the crash Smile First, the crash was most likely caused by loss of directional control. Second, either the power was at idle or the engine had quit at impact, as noted by the props bent back. Third, a fire started after impact near the aft left side of the engine, and burnt it's way up the front left side of the cabin.

As for more information on that aircraft, the NTSB's website is always a good place to start, but it's busy or down right now...

_________________


[TSF]Lt. Col. XcalibeR{5thF}
PG_Raptor
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

Thanks for the info, Im having intenet problems myself, so I'll have to try the NTSB later.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
XcalibeR
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 11, 2005
Posts: 358

PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:27 pm
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

Yeah, that was just me showing off from my Aviation Safety course :). But now I'm kind of interested in searching that specific crash. The NTSB doesn't have anything on it that I could find. Do you have any more information on the crash? When was it? where was it? where did you get the pics from?

_________________


[TSF]Lt. Col. XcalibeR{5thF}
PG_Raptor
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

- XcalibeR
Yeah, that was just me showing off from my Aviation Safety course :). But now I'm kind of interested in searching that specific crash. The NTSB doesn't have anything on it that I could find. Do you have any more information on the crash? When was it? where was it? where did you get the pics from?


There is no more specific information available to augment the pics, which came from me. Including where (other than Vietnam) or when. That happens when you have some 500 pics that are ~35 years old and you served in two widely separate military regions. It is unknown if there was hostile fire involved or just mechanical failure, that's why we're asking.
For my money, the aircraft likely attempted to put down on the road and went wide. I also doubt that the insignia relates to the 11th Cav as this is an Air Force bird, the insignia is incomplete, and prancing black horses are a common theme anyway.
O-1's of the latest variant, L-19e's, ceased production in 1962, so this is an old airframe even if the latest variety. Almost certainly, it was written off as a combat loss and pitched at the Long Binh boneyard with nothing of it surviving.

And that is all I know about 'dat.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
XcalibeR
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 11, 2005
Posts: 358

PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:57 am
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

- Doug_Kibbey
For my money, the aircraft likely attempted to put down on the road and went wide.


That's probably not a bad guess. The steep bank and lack of a definate edge on the road suggests that it is, in fact, a road, not a runway. Also helping that idea is the drainage ditch in the background. It might be a bad picture or exposure, but it also looks like the road and drain are wet, which would help an already unstable plane into the ditch.

Also, after looking at those pics a bit more, I think I can justify myself a bit more on my previous information, and go a bit further. I'm pretty sure that the fire that occured in the engine started after the crash, as noted by the fact that it propogated up, instead of back. It might be possible, though, that there had been an engine fire, and the wind kept it inside the cowling until the aircraft crashed. Either way, it was a very hot fire to be able to scold and char the metal and deform the plastic of the windshield that much.

I am also pretty sure that the engine had in fact quit before touch down. Props that are bent back are almost always signs that the engine was at a low power setting when it hit. In this case, the slight bending of the right side prop versus the major deformation of the left side prop (closer to the camera) tells me that it was probably wind milling. The major fold in the left side prop was most likely caused when the plane went in the ditch, against those rocks.

A few other things to note. The wings and tail section look to have been mostly damaged by the impact, so I think we can rule out any mechanical fail of the airframe. The right cowling was probably also a casualty of the crash. Second, and on a different note, I noticed that in the back ground of the first image, there is a chapel, along with what looks to be either a VOR or Radar tower closer to the crash site. Both of these seem to point to the fact that it crashed right outside of a permanant air base. This is further supported by the fact that the fire on the aircraft was put out fairly quickly, becuase it didn't spread that far along the aircraft.

So where does that put us? Was the engine in fact failed, or was it idling for landing? If it was failed, what caused the failure? What started the fire? when did the fire start?

If I'm even close on those observations, then I could put forth one probable cause. Take it for what it's worth, cause it's most likely very wrong. Using the above information, I would take and gander at it and that perhaps the pilot, whether just after taking off or just arriving, noticed smoke coming into the cabin. To meet the emergency, he probably cut the fuel supply to the engine (to help control the fire), which would, of course, shut down the engine. Since he's so near a base, I would say he was trying to make a runway, decided he couldn't make it, tried for the road, and slid off the side. After crashing, the fire then propogated up the side of the plane while the fire squad got out there.

Makes for a good story, eh? Mr. Green

Don't take any of that story as a given. It is only what one college sophmore can come up with from looking at three old pictures. If you want to do a bit more research on the engine, the L-19 used a Continental O-470-11 engine. I think if there was a fuel line that goes along the left hand side of the engine, that would further support the findings I put forward.

I'm not fairing too well on finding any info on this crash on the web, so you might have to resort back to your own memory to try to figure out where and when this occured.

_________________


[TSF]Lt. Col. XcalibeR{5thF}
PG_Raptor
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:19 am
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

I research and documented an F-105D-31-RE that crashed here at Ft Irwin, 11 Feb 1964. No one knew anything till I found a partial serial number and tried looking for it on Joe Baughers web-site. He lists all miliatry planes built by serial number from 1921 to present. I could not find anything close. I'll be damned if I wont find out though. Doug showed me this picture and I thought I could find it within 10 minutes. The fact that I haven't has made me want to find it even more and I will. I have a contact that may be of some help, but it will probably take 2-3 weeks of research for him to find. But for free, I can't knock it.
Are we sure this is an L19? What is the differnece between it and an OE-1 and some of the other "Bird Dog" variations? Are those white phos rocket mounts under the wings that I see?

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:31 am
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
I research and documented an F-105D-31-RE that crashed here at Ft Irwin, 11 Feb 1964. No one knew anything till I found a partial serial number and tried looking for it on Joe Baughers web-site. He lists all miliatry planes built by serial number from 1921 to present. I could not find anything close. I'll be damned if I wont find out though. Doug showed me this picture and I thought I could find it within 10 minutes. The fact that I haven't has made me want to find it even more and I will. I have a contact that may be of some help, but it will probably take 2-3 weeks of research for him to find. But for free, I can't knock it.
Are we sure this is an L19? What is the differnece between it and an OE-1 and some of the other "Bird Dog" variations? Are those white phos rocket mounts under the wings that I see?


Jeff,
All L-19's were based on the Cessna 170. The L-19 designation seems to have been dropped officially after Korea and changed to O-1. But as a type, there were several models of "L-19", the last being the "e" model, as noted. You will see claims that L-19's were long gone by the '70's in VN (and correctly, out of the Army altogether by '74), but we know they were around....
A VNAF pilot made the only unarrested landing of one on the U.S.S Midway with no barrier with four members of his family in a well documented and filmed landing during the evacuation of Saigon in '75. Numerous pics can be found of this feat on the 'net.

The O-2 was the Cessna "Skymaster" or "push me/pull me" with the twin boom, and are more associated, now, with Vietnam, but the O-1 was very much still around.

If it helps, I have "Googled" the bejeezus out of that number and all variants of type designators to no effect yet, over the course of several years. Pounded all the websites featuring O-1's and L-19's too. Official records don't always tell the whole story...and neither do tail numbers...this is especially true of Vietnam (and that number is unlike anything I've seen on the usual L-19's with pics around).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:38 am
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

In my numerous "travels" via the internet to research Chuck Yeagers F-100F and that F105D that crashed here, I have made a few contacts that know "Wingy Thingys" and I plan to contact them tomorrow if my work computer is working, (much of Ft Irwins server was down today). I have now become officially infatuated with finding out the history on this airplane, even if it is only limited history. Besides, I've researched everything here at Irwin, I need a new challenge to occupy my down time. Besides, I told you I'd find out for you, what kind of friend would I be if I didn't follow through. I only posted it here first because I've found that sometimes the answers to questions, can sometimes be found close to home rather than searching far and wide, (like I might end up doing). Gotta run.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Thud68
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 20, 2005
Posts: 369
Location: AZ USA
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 1:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

Back in 1988 I got curious about what happened to an F-105D I crewed at Korat RTAFB from Feb68 to Sep68. First I called the AMARC storage center at Davis-Monthan AFB here in Tucson. All they could tell me was that there records indicated it was not physically there, and that it had been involved in an accident while assigned to an Air Guard outfit in the DC area. They did provide me with this address for further info:
Department of the Air Force/ Headquarters Air Force Inspection and Safety Center/ Norton AFB, CA/ 92409-7001.
What I got from them was the crash package on that plane to included radio transcripts between Coast Guard, Pilot, and Tower during the incident. Even some pictures of parts brought up from the bottom of Chesepeake Bay. Pilot survived, plane didn't.
If you have the serial number or tail number and the date and location of the incident I would try the folks at Norton. Remember, my quest was in 1988 and things may have changed a bit. May also have been a small cost involved, with age CRS has set in ( can't remember s***).
Anywho, good luck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
" Refuel my plane and load my guns"

Hiroyoshi Nishizawa
" The Devil of Rabaul"
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:39 pm
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

OK, I admit I thought this would be easier than it has turned out to be. The Historical Freedom of Information Act Manager, Louie Alley at Kirtland AFB couldn't turn up anything on this bird. He was the one that helped me find records on F-105's and F-100's that were lost, and I didn't have pictures of them. However I'm on the trail! I have since contacted 16 other sources and hope for positive results soon, esspecially from one that wrote a detailed book on the Bird Dog's. I will keep you posted.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:48 am
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

One of my "sources" has contacted me about the airplane in the picture above. He is about 90% sure about the info he provided me. First, the plane was built in 1956, as one in a batch of 74 birds for that particular contract run, (serial numbers 56-4161 thru 56-4235). Not being able to see the final digit of the tail number, he has narrowed it be between 56-4180 and 56-4189. However in his "files" he shows that 180, 185, and 186 were NOT listed as being on the "Known Destroyed Birddog Lists". That narrows it to one of 7 serial numbers that are left. The plane was also built originally as an L-19E. He says the picture shows a USAF Tactical Air Support Squadron (TASS) aircraft, and these were called O-1E's by the Air Force.
The one thing he didn't say, was which TASS unit it was. I guess you'd have to look up area of operations for each unit and try to piece it together from that.
Hey "Thud 68" did you ever find out the ultimate demise of your bird? If not, tell me the tail number and I'll snoop around some.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

Here is another bit of information found on this Bird Dog. I contacted the International Bird Dog Association and a number of its members for help. Below is one of the responses. I hope it helps somewhat. I may get more info and if I do, I'll post it here.

Jim, Ron, guys...
Looking at the photos, the last digit of the tail number is missing. The little logo at the top of the vertical may help track it down. Don't knmow what TASS used the little horsey... It's not Seahorses and not 1st Cav art because it's an Air Force E-model from the 1956 contract series that was built in 57: The number is 0 (of course over 10 years old airframe) plus the 6 from the '56 contract run plus the 4181 or 82, 83, 84, or 87, 88, 89. Only 4180, 4185 and 4186 are shown as not destroyed in service. All others are listed as destroyed. And only 80, 85 and 86 did not get the "Vietnam" modifications with the dual FM command set installations plus other radio mods. Those three may have remained Stateside - and that's why they're not shown as destroyed (see Minard's book, pp 208 and 216 for info; s/n range 23815 - 23826.) Several in that series got the self-sealing tanks and Geise gear, too. All mods were made under an Air Force modifications contract, so that seems to support AF ownership as does the use of the rotating beacon in a cup on the top of the cabin. As far as I know, only AF did that for visibility with the fast-movers. Too bad the last digit is missing in the photo of the tail.


If it was Air Force, that may explain why no joy in Army records.


Ron, since he contacted you, if any of this makes sense to you, do you want to pass this on to SFC Jeff Button?

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

Doug, this is where that serial number for the Bird Dog falls into. Because the bird was over 10 years old/modified, it got a "0" as its first digit. The "6" is for the year (1956), and then the 418_ is the serial number. Thats why we were having problems finding it initially. My guess is that the bird in the picruee is either 4181, 82, 83, 84, 87, 88, or 89. Still don't know the unit though. See the excerpt below that I cut and paste from Joe Baughers site;

56-4161/4235 Cessna L-19E Bird Dog
4173 and 4174 transferred to USN as OE-1 BuNo 144663/144664.
Some sold to Thailand.
Redesignated O-1E in 1962.
4164 to N6234
4208 on display at Commado Air Park, Hurlburt Field, FL in 1973
4211 to Thai AF
4215 to Thai AF

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 5:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Cessna L19 Bird Dog ID...

Thanks, Jeff...
I thought it was pretty clear this was an Air Force plane from the color and side markings (All Army one's I've seen from this ere were OD green).

No pic I'm in possession of (I have four) show any greater detail that would be useful in the ID. Pity about the tail number, especially. Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Revive this topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  Officer's Club
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next

Archive Revive
Username:
This is an archived topic - your reply will not be appended here.
Instead, a new topic will be generated in the active forum.
The new topic will provide a reference link to this archived topic.