±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 725
Total: 725
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Home
04: Photo Gallery
05: Photo Gallery
06: Home
07: Home
08: Photo Gallery
09: Community Forums
10: Member Screenshots
11: News Archive
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Home
17: Home
18: Home
19: Home
20: Home
21: Home
22: Home
23: Home
24: Home
25: Home
26: Home
27: Home
28: Home
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Home
32: Downloads
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Home
36: Photo Gallery
37: Photo Gallery
38: Community Forums
39: News Archive
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Downloads
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Photo Gallery
47: Downloads
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Photo Gallery
51: Photo Gallery
52: Home
53: Photo Gallery
54: Home
55: Member Screenshots
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Statistics
60: Home
61: Photo Gallery
62: Home
63: Member Screenshots
64: Home
65: Home
66: Community Forums
67: Downloads
68: Photo Gallery
69: Home
70: Downloads
71: Photo Gallery
72: Photo Gallery
73: Photo Gallery
74: Member Screenshots
75: Home
76: Home
77: Member Screenshots
78: Photo Gallery
79: Home
80: Photo Gallery
81: Photo Gallery
82: Home
83: Home
84: Home
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Your Account
88: Home
89: News Archive
90: Photo Gallery
91: Community Forums
92: Photo Gallery
93: Member Screenshots
94: Photo Gallery
95: Home
96: Downloads
97: Home
98: Member Screenshots
99: Home
100: Photo Gallery
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Photo Gallery
104: News Archive
105: Community Forums
106: Photo Gallery
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Downloads
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: News
115: Photo Gallery
116: Home
117: Downloads
118: Home
119: Community Forums
120: Downloads
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Home
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Statistics
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Photo Gallery
134: Member Screenshots
135: Home
136: Community Forums
137: Member Screenshots
138: Community Forums
139: Member Screenshots
140: Member Screenshots
141: Home
142: Member Screenshots
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Home
147: Home
148: Home
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Home
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Home
163: Home
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Downloads
168: Home
169: Member Screenshots
170: Community Forums
171: Home
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Home
176: Home
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Home
183: Home
184: Home
185: Home
186: Home
187: Home
188: Home
189: Home
190: Home
191: Home
192: Home
193: Home
194: Home
195: Home
196: Home
197: Home
198: Home
199: Home
200: Home
201: Home
202: Community Forums
203: Home
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: News
207: Home
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Home
211: Member Screenshots
212: Home
213: Member Screenshots
214: Community Forums
215: Downloads
216: Your Account
217: Photo Gallery
218: Home
219: Home
220: Downloads
221: Home
222: Downloads
223: News Archive
224: Downloads
225: Member Screenshots
226: Community Forums
227: Home
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Photo Gallery
231: Community Forums
232: Downloads
233: Member Screenshots
234: Photo Gallery
235: Home
236: Home
237: Downloads
238: Downloads
239: Home
240: Downloads
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Member Screenshots
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Home
249: Home
250: News
251: Home
252: Downloads
253: Home
254: Home
255: Member Screenshots
256: Photo Gallery
257: Photo Gallery
258: Home
259: Home
260: Your Account
261: News
262: Community Forums
263: Downloads
264: Home
265: Home
266: Home
267: Member Screenshots
268: Downloads
269: Downloads
270: Member Screenshots
271: Home
272: Downloads
273: Home
274: News
275: Member Screenshots
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Home
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Downloads
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Statistics
285: Community Forums
286: Downloads
287: Photo Gallery
288: Downloads
289: News
290: Home
291: Community Forums
292: News
293: Home
294: Photo Gallery
295: Home
296: Home
297: Home
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Home
302: Home
303: Photo Gallery
304: Downloads
305: Community Forums
306: Statistics
307: Home
308: Home
309: Photo Gallery
310: Photo Gallery
311: Downloads
312: Home
313: Home
314: Community Forums
315: News
316: Downloads
317: Photo Gallery
318: Downloads
319: News Archive
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Community Forums
323: Downloads
324: News
325: Home
326: Photo Gallery
327: Member Screenshots
328: Photo Gallery
329: Home
330: Home
331: Your Account
332: Home
333: Home
334: Home
335: Home
336: Home
337: Home
338: Home
339: Home
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Photo Gallery
343: Member Screenshots
344: Photo Gallery
345: Home
346: Your Account
347: Downloads
348: Downloads
349: Downloads
350: News Archive
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Downloads
354: Home
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Home
359: Home
360: Downloads
361: News
362: Community Forums
363: Downloads
364: Downloads
365: Home
366: Downloads
367: Community Forums
368: Home
369: Home
370: Downloads
371: Community Forums
372: Home
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Downloads
377: Home
378: Community Forums
379: Home
380: Home
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Photo Gallery
384: News Archive
385: Statistics
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Home
391: Home
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Statistics
395: Community Forums
396: Home
397: Home
398: Home
399: Home
400: LinkToUs
401: Community Forums
402: Home
403: News
404: Member Screenshots
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Home
408: Community Forums
409: Home
410: Home
411: Downloads
412: Home
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Photo Gallery
416: Downloads
417: Home
418: News
419: Downloads
420: Photo Gallery
421: Photo Gallery
422: Member Screenshots
423: Community Forums
424: Photo Gallery
425: Home
426: Photo Gallery
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Downloads
430: Photo Gallery
431: Downloads
432: Home
433: Home
434: Home
435: Home
436: Home
437: Home
438: Home
439: Community Forums
440: Photo Gallery
441: Community Forums
442: Your Account
443: Home
444: Community Forums
445: Home
446: Home
447: Photo Gallery
448: News Archive
449: Photo Gallery
450: Community Forums
451: Photo Gallery
452: Community Forums
453: News
454: Photo Gallery
455: Search
456: Home
457: Community Forums
458: Downloads
459: Home
460: Community Forums
461: Home
462: Community Forums
463: Photo Gallery
464: Your Account
465: Home
466: Community Forums
467: Downloads
468: Home
469: Home
470: Home
471: Community Forums
472: Home
473: Home
474: Home
475: Home
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Home
482: Home
483: Photo Gallery
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: News Archive
488: Community Forums
489: Home
490: Home
491: Downloads
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Downloads
495: Search
496: Community Forums
497: Downloads
498: Photo Gallery
499: Community Forums
500: Home
501: Home
502: Home
503: News
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Home
507: Community Forums
508: News
509: News
510: Home
511: Home
512: Photo Gallery
513: Community Forums
514: Photo Gallery
515: Home
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: News Archive
519: Photo Gallery
520: Photo Gallery
521: Member Screenshots
522: Photo Gallery
523: Photo Gallery
524: Community Forums
525: Photo Gallery
526: Home
527: Downloads
528: Home
529: Home
530: Photo Gallery
531: Member Screenshots
532: Home
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: News Archive
538: Home
539: Home
540: Home
541: Community Forums
542: Downloads
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Community Forums
546: Downloads
547: Photo Gallery
548: Home
549: Home
550: Home
551: Community Forums
552: Home
553: Home
554: Community Forums
555: Downloads
556: Community Forums
557: Downloads
558: Downloads
559: Community Forums
560: Home
561: Community Forums
562: Photo Gallery
563: Community Forums
564: Home
565: Home
566: Statistics
567: Statistics
568: Community Forums
569: Home
570: Photo Gallery
571: Downloads
572: Member Screenshots
573: Home
574: Community Forums
575: Home
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Downloads
580: Photo Gallery
581: Photo Gallery
582: Home
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Home
589: Community Forums
590: Home
591: Downloads
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Home
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Downloads
600: Photo Gallery
601: Home
602: Home
603: Photo Gallery
604: Photo Gallery
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Downloads
611: Community Forums
612: Home
613: Home
614: Photo Gallery
615: Home
616: Photo Gallery
617: Community Forums
618: Home
619: Community Forums
620: Home
621: Home
622: Community Forums
623: Downloads
624: Home
625: News
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Downloads
629: Home
630: Photo Gallery
631: Photo Gallery
632: Photo Gallery
633: Downloads
634: Home
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Member Screenshots
638: Home
639: Home
640: Community Forums
641: Home
642: Community Forums
643: Home
644: Community Forums
645: Home
646: Home
647: Home
648: Downloads
649: Home
650: Home
651: Home
652: Home
653: Community Forums
654: Home
655: Downloads
656: Your Account
657: Community Forums
658: Member Screenshots
659: Home
660: Home
661: Photo Gallery
662: Home
663: Downloads
664: Home
665: Your Account
666: Community Forums
667: Photo Gallery
668: Home
669: Home
670: Home
671: Photo Gallery
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Home
676: Photo Gallery
677: Community Forums
678: Home
679: Your Account
680: Home
681: Home
682: Downloads
683: Home
684: Downloads
685: Home
686: Home
687: Home
688: Home
689: Community Forums
690: Your Account
691: Community Forums
692: Home
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Member Screenshots
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Home
699: Home
700: Community Forums
701: Photo Gallery
702: Home
703: Home
704: Home
705: Home
706: Home
707: Home
708: Home
709: Home
710: Community Forums
711: Community Forums
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: Community Forums
715: Member Screenshots
716: Photo Gallery
717: Community Forums
718: Home
719: Home
720: Community Forums
721: Home
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Home
725: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:24 pm
Post subject: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I bought a 20 February Army Times this morning here on post and page 16 had a huge write up on armor, vehicle, and helicopter losses in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2001. Here are some numbers from that article;
The Army has lost 85 helicopters broken down as;
-27 Apache's
-21 Black Hawks
-14 Chinooks
-23 Kiowa's
Armor and wheeled vehicles are as follows;
-20 M1 Tanks
-50 Bradley's
-20 Strykers
-20 M113's
-250 Humvees
-500 Medium/Heavy Trucks, FOX recon, mine clearers, and trailers
Additional numbers in the article are;
- 230 M1 were rebuilt in 2005, the number will top 700 in 2006.
- 318 Bradleys rebuilt in 2005, the number will top 600 in 2006.
- 219 M113's in 2005, the number will top 614 in 2006.
- 5,000 Humvees in 2005, the number will top 9,000 in 2006.
- 44 aircraft in 2005, the number will be close to 85 in 2006.
The Army has ordered 16 new Apaches, and 5 new Black Hawks. But cannot replace the 27 Kiowas because production lines are no longer open.
Quote- "There are thousands of small arms, radios, and generators that require major repair and overhaul. The repair backlog includes almost every major equipment item, from 50 caliber machine guns to hundreds of thousands of pads for tank tracks".
There are currently 30,000 Humvees in theater, once the war is over, 6,000 will be "washed out" upon return to the states, the rest will be repaired and overhauled.
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each. The upgrades will reduce the M1 versions from 5 to 2, (M1A1 AIM and the M1A2 SEP). Bradleys will also be reduced to just 2 versions.
Army workshops have cranked up capacity from 11 million man hours in 2002, to 20 million hours in 2005. AMC sends half its repair work to private-sector firms to help with the load.
Crunch those numbers, pretty staggering. Just thought you all might be interested.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

Over a 15 year period, it sounds like a bad 1-2 months in Vietnam (four months, if counting casualties), a testament to the sound designs of the equipment, their employment, and the infrastructure in place to get them back into the inventory.

To focus on a single type for comparison, there were 7,013 UH-1's (all variants) that served in Vietnam, of which 3,305 were destroyed.

Total helicopters destroyed in the Vietnam War was 5,086 out of 11,827.

Vehicles would be more difficult to account for, because many never came home..they were transferred to the ARVN as units pulled out. This includes numerous armored vehicles, including mine.

Obviously, the costs have gone up, adjusted for 35-40 years of inflation.

Not too shabby, IMO.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:35 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

"There are thousands of small arms, radios, and generators that require major repair and overhaul. The repair backlog includes almost every major equipment item, from 50 caliber machine guns to hundreds of thousands of pads for tank tracks".

There will be plenty of work for civilians at the arsenals, and in associated businesses. If you consider the work to rebuild ONE M4 carbine to specification, that means a full parts bin, a technician who understands the design and how to run the gauges, plus a series of inspectors at both ends of the supply chain. Will the US be buying more new gear, scrapping old gear or making do with current designs through to the next big purchasing period?
Back to top
View user's profile
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:03 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Maple_Leaf_Eh
Will the US be buying more new gear, scrapping old gear or making do with current designs through to the next big purchasing period?


Hi all!

Maple, the answer to your question is "some of each". The Army is using this as an opportunity to "spiral" new technologies and systems into service. Some of the old gear will be replaced with equivalent items. Some will be rebuilt, but to 0-hour condition with all the latest upgrades installed. And some items will be scrapped and replaced with improved and new systems. The idea is to push advanced technologies and systems into the field as they become available, and to keep existing equipment in peak condition, while culling older and less capable equipment out.

The Pentagram has a pretty comprehensive plan for maintaining our capabilities and continuing the Transformation effort, as long as our Congress will fund it. Of course, that is the hurdle, since they will bicker about the funding while wasting twice that amount on silly pet projects. The bottom line is that the health of the Army rests in the hands of the civilian leadership.

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:18 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I still wonder what the criteria for that list included with the ground vehicles in mind.

Is it:
Operational loss (broke beyond theater level repair),
Castrophic loss (...BLOWN UP, BURN DOWN or something such as that !!)

As for Aircraft, thats simple since if hit by enemy fire/mechanical failure and crash, the airframe most likely is a total write-off. Rapid Deaccelaration with 'terra-firma' tends to condemn the aircraft as NMC.

Just a few thoughts,

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Jinx
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:26 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:56 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

[img][/img][img][/img]
That article mentions that most all vehicle losses were due to IED's and car bombs, so I'm assuming that all the vehicles were total losses. As great as the Stryker might be, the mesh grill attached to it sure makes it look awkward for use in an urban enviroment, even thought the mesh no-doubt saves the crew and vehicle from RPG attacks.
I noticed in an USA Today article in Fridays edition, that the Navy is retiring the F-14 Tomcat, after 32 years of service. Its replacement the F18E/F Super Hornet has a 214mph slower top speed, and costs 24.6 Million dollars more than the F14's cost when new, (47.3 mil for the F14 in 1974 VS 71.9mil for the F18 in 1999). Seems that the F14 costs to much to repair. An F14 requires 50 hours of maint for each 1 hour of flight, versus 5-10 hours of maint for the F18. Also mentioned was the fact that the F14 was aimed at dogfighting, (as in top-gun fame) but that it is no longer needed since jets now shoot missiles at each other from miles away. The last F14 to fly a combat mission was February 8th, when Cpt. William Sizemore flew over Iraq with another F14 from the USS Theodore Roosevelt and dropped bombs. The F14 is being called the "last of the pure fighters". Do you supposse that a bunch of F14's will end up at China Lake as targets? What a sad fate for such a wonderful bird.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
The F14 is being called the "last of the pure fighters". Do you supposse that a bunch of F14's will end up at China Lake as targets? What a sad fate for such a wonderful bird.


Earlier generations have made similar claims for their favorite bird. At least one Vietnam War Navy or USMC jet jockey was quoted as saying "when you're out of F-8's, you're outta fighters!". Not everyone was happy to trade their F-8 Crusaders for the heavier, less agile, multi-role F-4. Laughing

David
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

I don't see how the F-14 can be considered a 'Pure Fighter' It was designed as a Fleet Air Defense Interceptor and wasn't supposed to have to dogfight at all. It was supposed to engage targets at 100 miles with the Phoenix missle. Suppsoedly it would shoot six maissles and let the computer figure out which targets to aim them at

Now when the F-15 was designed the mantra was 'Not a pound for Air to Ground' Everything was made as light as possible including making wire bundles just long enough to reach the boxes they went to meaning that when I neaded to replace the Comm control panel on an early F-15A I had to reach way down into the side console and ghook up 3 cannon plugs by feel with about 2 " of slack. And if you got a cannon plug on crooked and bent a pin it could take hours to replace the connector with it's 125 pins. Al of it done way down inside the plane where you couldn't see what you were doing. Later A models had about 6" of slack in the cables. but pilots used to get the early birds whenever possible they swore that there was a performance difference with the lighter birds. We were told that over 100 pounds had been saved just by making sure no cable was longer than neccesary. The F-15 was the last of the real dogfighters. The F-16 can't dogfight because of the 'fly by wire' side stick controller. With the side stick the pilot is only suggesting to the flight control computer what manuever he wants to make. the computer decides how much control to apply making sure the airframe is not 'over Ged' As one F-15 pilot i debriefed put it "If I have a missle coming up my tail I WANT to over G the airframe. I don't want some computer overriding my inputs because 'I may over stress the airframe and shorten the life of the aircraft' I want to pull that airplane around as tight as I can and if I pop a few rivets that is fine with me. If I pull the wings off then I'll eject but If I get away with it I'll help do the over G inspection when I get home" By the way the highest recorded G load on an F-15 was 19Gs in air combat manuevering. The pilot momentarily blacked out but he mad it back to the base. The wingtips were 1.5" higher than they should be (as measured before it was 'one time flight' back to St Louis. I wish I could remember the tail number of that plane.

About the F-8 remember the Navy never did put a gun in their F-4s which also made converting from the Crusader to the Phantom a less than desirable assignment for many fighter jocks.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- bsmart
About the F-8 remember the Navy never did put a gun in their F-4s which also made converting from the Crusader to the Phantom a less than desirable assignment for many fighter jocks.


True enough, Bob. And I'm sure a source of endless frustration to many F-4 jocks (AF, Navy, and USMC alike) who found themselves point blank to an NVAF MiG-17 or MiG-21 and unable to do anything about it. (Inside arming distance for AIM-9, let alone AIM-7!) I was actually thinking more about the fact that our squadron pilots called the F-4 the "Rhino" for a reason. Laughing

Marginal armor content: The F-4 was built about as solid as a tank!

David
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:18 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

The "pure-fighter" quote came from the Friday, 17 February USA Today article on page 2A, not me. That particular quote came from Adm. William Fallon, the U.S. Pacific Commander and a former F14 weapons officer, (maybe he's biased). I don't know anything about F-8's. I wasn't aware that the Navy never had guns installed on their F-4 Phantoms. Seems like stupidity to me. I feel there will always be a need for a gun system on a jet for one reason or another.
I apologize now for the "marginal Armor content", I love jets and have a special fondness for F-105 Thunderchiefs (Thuds) as well as the F-100 Super Sabre, F-4 Phantom, and A-7 Corsair. WWII would be almost every plane the US built. Always wanted to be a pilot but my mild color blindness nix'd that.
But back to what started this thread, losses to U.S. equipment overseas. I was aware of the Vietnam helicopter losses through the research I've done on Hueys. This was merely an "informational" piece to share what I've read in Army Times. I'm just kind of amazed at the numbers, not so much the actual vehicle/aircraft losses themselves, but the dollar amounts for the losses. Of course the human losses outweigh everything, but the dollar costs are stagering. In my research, I have found an M47 cost $129,000 to produce, an M60 cost $1,291,865, and an M1A2 costs 4.3 Million. See the following site for M1 info; www.globalsecurity.org.../lima.htm. Why it costs 7 million to upgrade a 4.3 million dollar tank, I don't know. I hope this clears things up.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:27 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
In my research, I have found an M47 cost $129,000 to produce, an M60 cost $1,291,865


Jeff,
I'm surprized at the figure for an M60. It was not my (or our, then) impression that the cost was even half that figure (at least up through the M60A1......A3's with all the goodies maybe....).
Can we get more than one source for the cost of, say, an M60A1 ~1970? I have doubts about the million-plus cost for the first two generations of 60's.

aha!...got it now...that price was for the latest/greatest M60A3 version:


www.fas.org/man/dod-10...-m60a3.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

Yeah, I was researching M60A3's because the 3- M60's at Ft Irwin are all A3 models. The $1.291,865 price is from the "Army Master Data File Acquisition" listing. How acurate the cost is I do not know. You get what you pay for. At 4.3 Million dollars, It would be my hope that as an M1 track commander, that the 4.3 mill went towards protecting me and my crew from a 105mm buried in the ground, not just towards a computer system that drains my battery.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:51 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Jinx
- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?


Hi Jinx! Hi Folks!

The cost of a new tank would possible be far more. There is NO plant, with skilled workers present, that can build new tanks.

You would have to find skilled workers, possible train some of them, check out all the equipment that was placed in storage (that is if any of it was saved), service and repair all of it as needed before restarting production. So less you are planning on building 10,000+ tanks, the restarting process cost would make 7 million per vehicle look cheap.

You have to remember that we didn't need the old AFV plants to make steel vehicles because all FCS vehicles will be made out of sci-fi composits. I think we are lucky that we still have plants that can do repairs and upgrades to old and damaged hulls.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
LeeW
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:25 am
Post subject: Re: Armor and Helicopter losses in the war....

- Jinx
- SFC_Jeff_Button
Every M1 thats being repaired or overhauled comes out as a M1A2 (SEP) at a cost of 7 million each.



Isn't that considerably more than what the tanks cost *new*? Even accounting for inflation?

Also remember that most of the new tanks were built back in the 80's with 105's. I think there have been at least two generations of armor since then as well as considerably more advanced electronics. So yes they are more expensive but they are also conciderably more capable.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 3
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum