±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 358
Total: 358
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Community Forums
03: Member Screenshots
04: Home
05: Home
06: Photo Gallery
07: Downloads
08: Contact
09: Member Screenshots
10: Home
11: Member Screenshots
12: Member Screenshots
13: Downloads
14: Downloads
15: Member Screenshots
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Member Screenshots
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Home
24: News Archive
25: Downloads
26: Home
27: Member Screenshots
28: Member Screenshots
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Member Screenshots
33: Community Forums
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: Home
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Downloads
43: Home
44: News Archive
45: Home
46: Community Forums
47: Member Screenshots
48: News
49: Community Forums
50: Home
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Community Forums
55: Home
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Member Screenshots
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: News
64: Member Screenshots
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Downloads
70: Home
71: News Archive
72: Photo Gallery
73: Home
74: Member Screenshots
75: Community Forums
76: Community Forums
77: News Archive
78: Home
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Home
82: Home
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Photo Gallery
88: Home
89: News Archive
90: Member Screenshots
91: News Archive
92: Community Forums
93: News
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: News
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Home
101: Home
102: Downloads
103: Downloads
104: Home
105: Downloads
106: Home
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Community Forums
110: Photo Gallery
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: News Archive
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Member Screenshots
122: Community Forums
123: Member Screenshots
124: News Archive
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Home
128: Member Screenshots
129: Photo Gallery
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: News Archive
135: Community Forums
136: News Archive
137: Downloads
138: Community Forums
139: Member Screenshots
140: Home
141: Member Screenshots
142: Community Forums
143: Member Screenshots
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Downloads
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Member Screenshots
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Member Screenshots
156: Community Forums
157: Home
158: Statistics
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Member Screenshots
162: Home
163: Photo Gallery
164: Home
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Member Screenshots
169: Community Forums
170: Member Screenshots
171: Downloads
172: Downloads
173: Photo Gallery
174: News
175: Home
176: Downloads
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Member Screenshots
181: Downloads
182: Community Forums
183: Home
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Community Forums
187: Downloads
188: Community Forums
189: Member Screenshots
190: Member Screenshots
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Downloads
194: Member Screenshots
195: Community Forums
196: News Archive
197: Community Forums
198: Home
199: Member Screenshots
200: Member Screenshots
201: Home
202: Home
203: Home
204: Community Forums
205: Member Screenshots
206: Photo Gallery
207: Member Screenshots
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Member Screenshots
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Downloads
217: Member Screenshots
218: Community Forums
219: Photo Gallery
220: Community Forums
221: Downloads
222: Home
223: Member Screenshots
224: Community Forums
225: Home
226: Community Forums
227: Home
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: Member Screenshots
231: News Archive
232: Community Forums
233: Home
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Home
237: News
238: Home
239: Member Screenshots
240: Downloads
241: Community Forums
242: Statistics
243: Statistics
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Downloads
248: Home
249: Home
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: News Archive
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Home
256: Downloads
257: Community Forums
258: Home
259: Home
260: Member Screenshots
261: Member Screenshots
262: Community Forums
263: Photo Gallery
264: Home
265: Home
266: Community Forums
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Home
271: Photo Gallery
272: Community Forums
273: Home
274: Community Forums
275: Downloads
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Member Screenshots
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Member Screenshots
284: Home
285: Community Forums
286: Member Screenshots
287: Member Screenshots
288: Community Forums
289: News Archive
290: Photo Gallery
291: Community Forums
292: Member Screenshots
293: News Archive
294: Community Forums
295: Member Screenshots
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: News Archive
299: News Archive
300: News Archive
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Member Screenshots
305: Photo Gallery
306: Member Screenshots
307: Home
308: Photo Gallery
309: Member Screenshots
310: Photo Gallery
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: News Archive
314: Home
315: News
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Member Screenshots
319: News
320: Community Forums
321: Home
322: Photo Gallery
323: Home
324: Community Forums
325: Member Screenshots
326: Treasury
327: Home
328: Member Screenshots
329: Member Screenshots
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Treasury
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Home
338: Member Screenshots
339: Your Account
340: News
341: Member Screenshots
342: Member Screenshots
343: Photo Gallery
344: Home
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Home
348: News Archive
349: Home
350: News Archive
351: Home
352: Member Screenshots
353: Member Screenshots
354: Member Screenshots
355: Home
356: Home
357: Community Forums
358: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Russian and German guage railway-third rail?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
geoffsteer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:08 pm
Post subject: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Hi Guys-
I've been told, by someone who admitted they were not certain of their facts, that the Germans added a third rail to Russian tracks that accomodated the Russian tracks to thier own guage. I mean that the Russian guage was left in place and the added third rail was there so that it and the other rail would be the German guage. Are there any pictures or information that confirms that this was done? It would make an interesting feature for the Trumpeter BR-52.
With thanks-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

- geoffsteer
Hi Guys-
I've been told, by someone who admitted they were not certain of their facts, that the Germans added a third rail to Russian tracks that accomodated the Russian tracks to thier own guage. I mean that the Russian guage was left in place and the added third rail was there so that it and the other rail would be the German guage. Are there any pictures or information that confirms that this was done? It would make an interesting feature for the Trumpeter BR-52.
With thanks-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)


Hi Geoff! Hi Folks!

I don't ever recall seeing any photos of three rail tracks in Russian. I don't remember where I read it, but I seam to remember reading that the Germans used a large number of railroad engineers units to pull up one rail and relayed it to Europe gage.

I also remember reading that the German Higher Commands had problems with getting the word out to the front line units to not destory, unless they had to, Soviet power units and rolling stock.

One other side point. Laying a third rail would have required a LOT of steel. I agree that the Germans where not the best at managing resorces sometime, but without documention, I would wonder about any claim of massive third rail installation. Possible it was done on a limited bases.

Just not sure about this one, Neutral
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Shadow_Bshwackr
Janitor

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 7019
Location: Central Illinois, USA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

I seen a program on TV that was "Riding the rails" where something to this effect is still used.

The program I seen used different 'standards' for different countries or in this case, going from China to Russia. The train had to stop, switch the wheels under the train cars to the new standard and were off again. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

I saw an episode of "Great Railway Journeys" featuring a trip from China into Russia. As you said, they had to jack up the coaches and change wheel trucks at the border because of the difference in rail gauges used.

I suspect Roy is probably correct. A third rail approach might have been used in some areas, but shortage of steel (and possibly German arrogance, too) would have kept it from widespread use. AFAIK German policy was to convert as much track and rolling stock to their own gauge as possible.

David
Back to top
View user's profile
Paul_Jungnitsch
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:51 am
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

You can see the dual tracks at the Chinese-Russian border here: Trans-Siberian 1991

We all had to leave while they changed bogies, and then off we went again, took about an hour to change the train over, IIRC.
Back to top
View user's profile
Shadow_Bshwackr
Janitor

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 7019
Location: Central Illinois, USA
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:01 am
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Rgr David, that's the same program I seen and was referring to.. Wink

When I watched that program, I wondered why the train owners didn't make retractable/expandable wheels to make the switch much less of an effort.

Thanks for the link Paul...
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:33 am
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

'wondered why the train owners didn't make retractable/expandable wheels to make the switch much less of an effort. '

Reliability and stability at high speed are some factors. If you look closely most rail cars have wheels and axles that are a single casting. The bearings support the whole piece on the rail truck and absorb the lateral forces as the train follows the tracks. Building a unit that will do that and change dimensions (but only change dimensions when it is supposed to), hold up to heavy use and works smoothly at speeds above 50 MPH isn't easy. Add in the issue of idiot proofing the change mechanism so semi literate railroad workers in the middle of nowhere don't break it and taking an hour to lift the car up, slide different rail truck under it doesn't seem so difficult. That hour was probably taken up with customs and immigration processing anyway.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Shadow_Bshwackr
Janitor

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 7019
Location: Central Illinois, USA
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:40 am
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

I bet you're right, I forgot about the "making it idiot proof" part...lol

And yep, I'm sure customs likes it just fine the way it is too... Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
geoffsteer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian/German guage railway-third rail?Roy and others..

Hi Roy-
Reference your line:"One other side point. Laying a third rail would have required a LOT of steel. I agree that the Germans where not the best at managing resorces sometime" You have a good point there, as usual. One thought that does occurr though is this; which would have been easier, laying down a third rail which, would have allowed the Germans to use both their own and captured Russian equipmment over the same lines. Or, convert all Russian railway equipment to German guage or German to Russian? Both of these ideas would require a massive amount of labour intensive and time consuming effort. Of the two options, the third rail seems both easier and quicker. My researches on the web led to the discovery that the third rail trick is currently in use in Switzerland and was used in Germany in certain areas to allow rails to be used by both inter-urban non-inter-urban ("non-inter-urban", cannot think of what else to call it). I'd say the idea is possible which, is hardly certain proof that it was used in Russia. I'll continue with my web based research. I hope it turns out to be true that the Germans did use the third rail in Russia as this would be a very interesting feature.
Thanks for your help Roy and the rest-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)
Back to top
View user's profile
Jens_O_Mehner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 511
Location: Giessen, Germany
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Geoff,

the idea was to regauge the Russian rails to standard gauge so supply trains could run from the Reich all the way to the front, and an amazingly huge chunk of the Russian rail system was thus converted. In some places, where the territory wasn't in German hands long enough or not safe for the Eisenbahnpioniere, the Russian broad gauge remained, and captured equipment was used on it. There certainly were some stations/yards were some type of three-rail arrangement was in place (especially former border stations), but those lines didn't wander too far outside the original property.

Timewise, the effort to regauge the rails was about as consuming as laying a third rail, but with regauging you didn't need further quantities of the valuable steel, and manpower was cheap in the form of forced labor.

Incidentally, the Russians used broad gauge because the Tsar wanted to deny possible attackers the use of their trains all the way from the West Coast to points inside the Rodina.

Hitler envisioned an ever broader gauge super-railway from Berlin to Siberia, there used to be a book out on it, but I can't remember the title, and I don't think it was ever translated into English. Schiffer should have a book on Eisenbahnpioniere, maybe you want to check that source.

And no, German railway guns were never regauged to Russian standards, the wider gauge of the Trumpeter K5 is in order to run it on garden railway hardware/ No 1 gauge rails.

Cheers,

Jens O.
Back to top
View user's profile
geoffsteer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?Thanks Jens

Hi Jens-
Thank you for the definitive answer, its nice to have this cleared up. Like I said in my initial post, the third rail would make an interesting feature. Well, I could have the BR-52 in a railyard where, as you said the third rail could be seen.
Could you, please, explain this line of yours:
"And no, German railway guns were never regauged to Russian standards, the wider gauge of the Trumpeter K5 is in order to run it on garden railway hardware/ No 1 gauge rails."
I know it is not in reply to anything I said and seems to be saying Trumpeter gave their K5 inaccurate tracks because those tracks could be used with existing "garden railway hardware". I am wondering about this as it is, probably, a good indication of what we can expect to see in their BR-52 kit.
Thanks again-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)
Back to top
View user's profile
Jens_O_Mehner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 511
Location: Giessen, Germany
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Ah,

don't worry Geoff, not aimed at you, just some general pre-emptive mentioning of facts since somebody somewhere is going to perk up, and will state that K5s were regauged because Trumpeter wouldn't dare to be un-prototypical... Their K5 is the better detailed of the two, but Dragon's is 1/35 through and through.

I would have loved to see the cranes necessary to lift a K5 in order to change its trucks- I can see a queue of K5s lined up at the DORA assembly yard, waiting to use the crane.

That would have been a great opportunity for some third-rail action, but the crafty railroad engineers regauged the track before the K5 was sent within firing range.

Incidentally, I hadn't even thought about the fact that the BR52 would probably run on No 1 gauge, which does translate into 1/32, but that's probably going to happen.

Cheers,

Jens O.
Back to top
View user's profile
Indrakrishnamurti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 12, 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:09 am
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Jens and all,

It would not have been possible to have a three rail arrangement with the gauges (1435 mm and 1524 mm) would have been too close to allow the wheels running on the broader gauge to clear the inside gauge. The distance between the two would have been less than 10 cm. See the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_gauge) here for some information.

If the difference between gauges were larger, say 1435 mm and 1067 mm (as in pre-WW II Indonesia), it would have been possible to have three- rail mixed gauge track. It still required complicated switches/turnouts though.

Cheers,

Indra

- Jens_O_Mehner
Geoff,

the idea was to regauge the Russian rails to standard gauge so supply trains could run from the Reich all the way to the front, and an amazingly huge chunk of the Russian rail system was thus converted. In some places, where the territory wasn't in German hands long enough or not safe for the Eisenbahnpioniere, the Russian broad gauge remained, and captured equipment was used on it. There certainly were some stations/yards were some type of three-rail arrangement was in place (especially former border stations), but those lines didn't wander too far outside the original property.
Cheers,

Jens O.
Back to top
View user's profile
LeeW
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Well you could set it up with the middle rail as the common rail but that would mean either desiging it that way from the begginning or adding more ties.
Back to top
View user's profile
jch_in_uk
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

I've been told, by someone who admitted they were not certain of their facts, that the Germans added a third rail to Russian tracks that accomodated the Russian tracks to thier own guage. I mean that the Russian guage was left in place and the added third rail was there so that it and the other rail would be the German guage.


If you think about it, it's not really practical on existing railways, the 'standard gauge' is 4 foot 8 inches, the 'broad' (Soviet) gauge is 5 foot 3 inches, so the difference is 7 inches.

You could just about fit the extra rail on the sleeper (tie to our US colleagues), but there would not be a lot of space left outside the new rail on the sleeper.

In addition, points and crossovers would be a nightmare.

Dual gauge tracks do exist, usually only on narrow gauge railways, where the whole rail set-up was much lighter.

Hope this helps.

JH
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum