±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 434
Total: 434
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Home
05: Community Forums
06: Downloads
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Home
10: Downloads
11: Home
12: Home
13: Home
14: Home
15: Home
16: Home
17: Community Forums
18: Home
19: Home
20: Home
21: Home
22: Home
23: News Archive
24: Member Screenshots
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Photo Gallery
29: Home
30: Home
31: Photo Gallery
32: Home
33: Home
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Home
37: Home
38: Home
39: Community Forums
40: Home
41: Community Forums
42: Photo Gallery
43: Downloads
44: Member Screenshots
45: Downloads
46: Home
47: Home
48: Home
49: Home
50: Home
51: Community Forums
52: Photo Gallery
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Home
56: Home
57: Photo Gallery
58: Home
59: Community Forums
60: Home
61: Home
62: Home
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Home
66: Home
67: Community Forums
68: News Archive
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: Community Forums
76: Member Screenshots
77: News Archive
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Home
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Home
84: Home
85: Downloads
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Home
89: News Archive
90: Community Forums
91: Member Screenshots
92: Member Screenshots
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Home
96: Home
97: Home
98: Home
99: Home
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Downloads
107: Community Forums
108: Home
109: Home
110: News Archive
111: Home
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Home
116: Home
117: Home
118: Home
119: Community Forums
120: Home
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Downloads
128: Home
129: Home
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Downloads
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Photo Gallery
141: Home
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: Home
145: Home
146: Photo Gallery
147: Community Forums
148: Home
149: Home
150: Statistics
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Downloads
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Photo Gallery
164: Home
165: Home
166: Home
167: Home
168: Home
169: Community Forums
170: Home
171: Home
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Home
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Home
180: Photo Gallery
181: Home
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Downloads
185: Downloads
186: Home
187: Home
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Home
191: Home
192: Member Screenshots
193: Community Forums
194: Member Screenshots
195: Community Forums
196: Home
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Photo Gallery
202: Community Forums
203: Member Screenshots
204: Downloads
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Home
208: Home
209: Home
210: Downloads
211: Home
212: Member Screenshots
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Home
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: Home
219: Community Forums
220: Home
221: Member Screenshots
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Home
225: Home
226: Member Screenshots
227: Photo Gallery
228: Home
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Photo Gallery
233: Home
234: Home
235: Home
236: Home
237: Home
238: Home
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Home
242: Home
243: Photo Gallery
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Home
248: Member Screenshots
249: Home
250: Home
251: Downloads
252: Community Forums
253: Downloads
254: Downloads
255: Home
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: Community Forums
259: Home
260: Member Screenshots
261: Member Screenshots
262: Home
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Downloads
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Member Screenshots
271: Community Forums
272: Downloads
273: Home
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Photo Gallery
278: Community Forums
279: Photo Gallery
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Home
283: Home
284: Statistics
285: Downloads
286: Community Forums
287: Downloads
288: Community Forums
289: Downloads
290: Downloads
291: Your Account
292: Community Forums
293: Your Account
294: Home
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: News Archive
304: Photo Gallery
305: Home
306: Home
307: Home
308: Home
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Community Forums
312: Home
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Downloads
316: Home
317: Home
318: Home
319: Home
320: Home
321: Home
322: Home
323: Community Forums
324: Home
325: Photo Gallery
326: Your Account
327: Home
328: Home
329: Photo Gallery
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Photo Gallery
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: News
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Home
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Home
347: Downloads
348: Home
349: Home
350: Community Forums
351: Home
352: Member Screenshots
353: Photo Gallery
354: Home
355: News Archive
356: Home
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Member Screenshots
360: Photo Gallery
361: Community Forums
362: Home
363: Home
364: Home
365: Home
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Home
370: Home
371: Home
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Home
377: News Archive
378: Photo Gallery
379: Member Screenshots
380: Home
381: Community Forums
382: Home
383: Your Account
384: Home
385: Home
386: Home
387: Home
388: Community Forums
389: Member Screenshots
390: Member Screenshots
391: Member Screenshots
392: Home
393: Home
394: Home
395: Home
396: Home
397: Community Forums
398: Photo Gallery
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Home
405: Home
406: Home
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: News
410: Member Screenshots
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Photo Gallery
417: Home
418: Home
419: Community Forums
420: Home
421: Photo Gallery
422: Downloads
423: Home
424: Community Forums
425: Member Screenshots
426: Home
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: Home
430: Community Forums
431: Home
432: Community Forums
433: Home
434: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Russian and German guage railway-third rail?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
geoffsteer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:08 pm
Post subject: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Hi Guys-
I've been told, by someone who admitted they were not certain of their facts, that the Germans added a third rail to Russian tracks that accomodated the Russian tracks to thier own guage. I mean that the Russian guage was left in place and the added third rail was there so that it and the other rail would be the German guage. Are there any pictures or information that confirms that this was done? It would make an interesting feature for the Trumpeter BR-52.
With thanks-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 3:04 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

- geoffsteer
Hi Guys-
I've been told, by someone who admitted they were not certain of their facts, that the Germans added a third rail to Russian tracks that accomodated the Russian tracks to thier own guage. I mean that the Russian guage was left in place and the added third rail was there so that it and the other rail would be the German guage. Are there any pictures or information that confirms that this was done? It would make an interesting feature for the Trumpeter BR-52.
With thanks-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)


Hi Geoff! Hi Folks!

I don't ever recall seeing any photos of three rail tracks in Russian. I don't remember where I read it, but I seam to remember reading that the Germans used a large number of railroad engineers units to pull up one rail and relayed it to Europe gage.

I also remember reading that the German Higher Commands had problems with getting the word out to the front line units to not destory, unless they had to, Soviet power units and rolling stock.

One other side point. Laying a third rail would have required a LOT of steel. I agree that the Germans where not the best at managing resorces sometime, but without documention, I would wonder about any claim of massive third rail installation. Possible it was done on a limited bases.

Just not sure about this one, Neutral
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Shadow_Bshwackr
Janitor

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 7020
Location: Central Illinois, USA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

I seen a program on TV that was "Riding the rails" where something to this effect is still used.

The program I seen used different 'standards' for different countries or in this case, going from China to Russia. The train had to stop, switch the wheels under the train cars to the new standard and were off again. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
David_Reasoner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 127
Location: South Central Kentucky
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

I saw an episode of "Great Railway Journeys" featuring a trip from China into Russia. As you said, they had to jack up the coaches and change wheel trucks at the border because of the difference in rail gauges used.

I suspect Roy is probably correct. A third rail approach might have been used in some areas, but shortage of steel (and possibly German arrogance, too) would have kept it from widespread use. AFAIK German policy was to convert as much track and rolling stock to their own gauge as possible.

David
Back to top
View user's profile
Paul_Jungnitsch
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 24, 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:51 am
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

You can see the dual tracks at the Chinese-Russian border here: Trans-Siberian 1991

We all had to leave while they changed bogies, and then off we went again, took about an hour to change the train over, IIRC.
Back to top
View user's profile
Shadow_Bshwackr
Janitor

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 7020
Location: Central Illinois, USA
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:01 am
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Rgr David, that's the same program I seen and was referring to.. Wink

When I watched that program, I wondered why the train owners didn't make retractable/expandable wheels to make the switch much less of an effort.

Thanks for the link Paul...
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:33 am
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

'wondered why the train owners didn't make retractable/expandable wheels to make the switch much less of an effort. '

Reliability and stability at high speed are some factors. If you look closely most rail cars have wheels and axles that are a single casting. The bearings support the whole piece on the rail truck and absorb the lateral forces as the train follows the tracks. Building a unit that will do that and change dimensions (but only change dimensions when it is supposed to), hold up to heavy use and works smoothly at speeds above 50 MPH isn't easy. Add in the issue of idiot proofing the change mechanism so semi literate railroad workers in the middle of nowhere don't break it and taking an hour to lift the car up, slide different rail truck under it doesn't seem so difficult. That hour was probably taken up with customs and immigration processing anyway.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Shadow_Bshwackr
Janitor

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Posts: 7020
Location: Central Illinois, USA
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:40 am
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

I bet you're right, I forgot about the "making it idiot proof" part...lol

And yep, I'm sure customs likes it just fine the way it is too... Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
geoffsteer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian/German guage railway-third rail?Roy and others..

Hi Roy-
Reference your line:"One other side point. Laying a third rail would have required a LOT of steel. I agree that the Germans where not the best at managing resorces sometime" You have a good point there, as usual. One thought that does occurr though is this; which would have been easier, laying down a third rail which, would have allowed the Germans to use both their own and captured Russian equipmment over the same lines. Or, convert all Russian railway equipment to German guage or German to Russian? Both of these ideas would require a massive amount of labour intensive and time consuming effort. Of the two options, the third rail seems both easier and quicker. My researches on the web led to the discovery that the third rail trick is currently in use in Switzerland and was used in Germany in certain areas to allow rails to be used by both inter-urban non-inter-urban ("non-inter-urban", cannot think of what else to call it). I'd say the idea is possible which, is hardly certain proof that it was used in Russia. I'll continue with my web based research. I hope it turns out to be true that the Germans did use the third rail in Russia as this would be a very interesting feature.
Thanks for your help Roy and the rest-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)
Back to top
View user's profile
Jens_O_Mehner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 511
Location: Giessen, Germany
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 5:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Geoff,

the idea was to regauge the Russian rails to standard gauge so supply trains could run from the Reich all the way to the front, and an amazingly huge chunk of the Russian rail system was thus converted. In some places, where the territory wasn't in German hands long enough or not safe for the Eisenbahnpioniere, the Russian broad gauge remained, and captured equipment was used on it. There certainly were some stations/yards were some type of three-rail arrangement was in place (especially former border stations), but those lines didn't wander too far outside the original property.

Timewise, the effort to regauge the rails was about as consuming as laying a third rail, but with regauging you didn't need further quantities of the valuable steel, and manpower was cheap in the form of forced labor.

Incidentally, the Russians used broad gauge because the Tsar wanted to deny possible attackers the use of their trains all the way from the West Coast to points inside the Rodina.

Hitler envisioned an ever broader gauge super-railway from Berlin to Siberia, there used to be a book out on it, but I can't remember the title, and I don't think it was ever translated into English. Schiffer should have a book on Eisenbahnpioniere, maybe you want to check that source.

And no, German railway guns were never regauged to Russian standards, the wider gauge of the Trumpeter K5 is in order to run it on garden railway hardware/ No 1 gauge rails.

Cheers,

Jens O.
Back to top
View user's profile
geoffsteer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?Thanks Jens

Hi Jens-
Thank you for the definitive answer, its nice to have this cleared up. Like I said in my initial post, the third rail would make an interesting feature. Well, I could have the BR-52 in a railyard where, as you said the third rail could be seen.
Could you, please, explain this line of yours:
"And no, German railway guns were never regauged to Russian standards, the wider gauge of the Trumpeter K5 is in order to run it on garden railway hardware/ No 1 gauge rails."
I know it is not in reply to anything I said and seems to be saying Trumpeter gave their K5 inaccurate tracks because those tracks could be used with existing "garden railway hardware". I am wondering about this as it is, probably, a good indication of what we can expect to see in their BR-52 kit.
Thanks again-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)
Back to top
View user's profile
Jens_O_Mehner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 511
Location: Giessen, Germany
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Ah,

don't worry Geoff, not aimed at you, just some general pre-emptive mentioning of facts since somebody somewhere is going to perk up, and will state that K5s were regauged because Trumpeter wouldn't dare to be un-prototypical... Their K5 is the better detailed of the two, but Dragon's is 1/35 through and through.

I would have loved to see the cranes necessary to lift a K5 in order to change its trucks- I can see a queue of K5s lined up at the DORA assembly yard, waiting to use the crane.

That would have been a great opportunity for some third-rail action, but the crafty railroad engineers regauged the track before the K5 was sent within firing range.

Incidentally, I hadn't even thought about the fact that the BR52 would probably run on No 1 gauge, which does translate into 1/32, but that's probably going to happen.

Cheers,

Jens O.
Back to top
View user's profile
Indrakrishnamurti
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 12, 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 8:09 am
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Jens and all,

It would not have been possible to have a three rail arrangement with the gauges (1435 mm and 1524 mm) would have been too close to allow the wheels running on the broader gauge to clear the inside gauge. The distance between the two would have been less than 10 cm. See the Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_gauge) here for some information.

If the difference between gauges were larger, say 1435 mm and 1067 mm (as in pre-WW II Indonesia), it would have been possible to have three- rail mixed gauge track. It still required complicated switches/turnouts though.

Cheers,

Indra

- Jens_O_Mehner
Geoff,

the idea was to regauge the Russian rails to standard gauge so supply trains could run from the Reich all the way to the front, and an amazingly huge chunk of the Russian rail system was thus converted. In some places, where the territory wasn't in German hands long enough or not safe for the Eisenbahnpioniere, the Russian broad gauge remained, and captured equipment was used on it. There certainly were some stations/yards were some type of three-rail arrangement was in place (especially former border stations), but those lines didn't wander too far outside the original property.
Cheers,

Jens O.
Back to top
View user's profile
LeeW
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

Well you could set it up with the middle rail as the common rail but that would mean either desiging it that way from the begginning or adding more ties.
Back to top
View user's profile
jch_in_uk
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Russian and German guage railway-third rail?

I've been told, by someone who admitted they were not certain of their facts, that the Germans added a third rail to Russian tracks that accomodated the Russian tracks to thier own guage. I mean that the Russian guage was left in place and the added third rail was there so that it and the other rail would be the German guage.


If you think about it, it's not really practical on existing railways, the 'standard gauge' is 4 foot 8 inches, the 'broad' (Soviet) gauge is 5 foot 3 inches, so the difference is 7 inches.

You could just about fit the extra rail on the sleeper (tie to our US colleagues), but there would not be a lot of space left outside the new rail on the sleeper.

In addition, points and crossovers would be a nightmare.

Dual gauge tracks do exist, usually only on narrow gauge railways, where the whole rail set-up was much lighter.

Hope this helps.

JH
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum