Com-Central.net

- Neil_Baumgardner

That should be correct. The M26 Dragon Wagon's trailer was the M15.

www.missing-lynx.com/a.../amtdw.htm

Neil

Oh wait, the M15 trailer has eight wheels, this one has 12... Didnt know there were any other trailers that went with the Dragon Wagon...

Neil

- bsmart

Maybe we can approach the date from another angle

Can anyone ID the car in the background. I know my monitor here at work doesn't do detail real well but The headlights look like they may be the rectangular ones that were first introduced in 1975 (If I remember right) Some GM cars had the grill designed for the rectangular lights in teh 74 models but when they were not approved intime had inserts that used round lights. I am sure teh car is a GM but am unsure of it being a Olds, Buick or Pontiac. but id'ing the year of the car would give us a 'no earlier than' date.

I am no expert, but that looks like an Oldsmobile Cutlass, model year either 1976 or 1977. The switch to rectangular headlights was made in the 1976 model year. So if it is a 1976 vehicle the photo might date from as early as late 1975 (as the new models used to arrive in September, just like the new television shows).

Hi Folks!

Some time back the subject of 'how do you lose a super heavy tank' came up on the old DG site. I put together this time line with some references for the known facts, dates known and unknown for now.

September 1945, 1st pilot model completed. Registration number 40226809
December 21, 1945, 1st pilot model shipped to Aberdeen.
Used for engineering tests.
January 10, 1946, 2nd pilot model shipped to Aberdeen. Registration number 40226810.
January 23, 1946 - Picture of T95 number 1 at Aberdeen.
April 11, 1946 - Picture of T95 number 2 at Aberdeen.
Date unknown, 2nd pilot transferred to Fort Knox.
Date unknown, 2nd pilot transferred to Engineer Board at Yuma, Arizona for floating bridge testing.
October 3, 1946 - Picture of a Super Heavy Tank at Aberdeen. Model unknown.
Date and location unknown, 2nd pilot model destroyed by fire during testing.
Project terminated in October 1947.
May 3, 1948 - Super Heavy Tank in the doors of LST 1153, location and model number unknown. Could this be a picture of pilot model number one moving to Fort Belvior?

1.) British and American Tanks of World War II by Peter Chamberlain and Chris Ellis. Page 163, Picture of T95 Pilot Model #1.
2.) Firepower, A History of the American Heavy Tank by Hunnicutt. Pages 61-69. This book has most of the story, but not all of it.
3.) The Castle, post newspaper, Fort Belvior, Virginia, sometime 1983 or very early 1984.
4.) Armor Magazine (I think), sometime between March 1984 to April 1987, Fort Knox has the one and only U.S. build Super Heavy Tank. If I remember correctly, it was a one page, maybe half a page article on the back cover of the magazine. Don't remember if it was on the inside or the outside. My guess is there was no picture which would account for why I don't have it in my collection.


We now have two new items to add to my time line.
A photo taken at Ft. Knox, sometime mid 1970s.
Newspaper article reporting a T-28 found at Ft. Belvoir in 1975.

Is there any way to tell if the vehicle at Ft. Knox now is pilot 1 or 2?

1st pilot model registration number 40226809
2nd pilot model registration number 40226810.

Question about the outboard track set photografted at Ft. Knox.
Is it possible, they are part of pilot 2, left at Knox when it was shiiped to Yuma?

Question about story of one vehicle being solded for scrap.
Could that have been pilot 2 after it had been destoryed by fire?

For Dontos or Charles Lemons
Are there any numbers on the hull and the outboard track sections?
Something like the M60 tanks which has matching serial numbers on the hull and the engine decks before they were mixed during repairs?
Could there be a SECOND set of tracks someplace in an out of the way storage building?

Wouldn't it be wild it the vehicle at Ft. Knox turn out to be pilot number 2?

Great finds/reports guys!

Sgt, Scouts out!

Question to me, does this mean I have find that Accurate Armour kit I have and finally start building it?

- Tumbleweed

This looks to me like it is a three axle trailer behind the tractor. The trailer has a 5th wheel mounted on it and another three axle trailer is hooked to it. This is common in 'heavy haul' operations.

Tumble is correct. It's not real clear in my post above, but in the photo I do have, you can see two, three axle trailiers, one with a fifth wheel and one with a set of ramps. What is not clear is the number of tires on each axle. My guess, based on the way the wheels are mounted, is duals on the ends just like the rear axles on the truck.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts out!

- Roy_A_Lingle

Hi Folks!
We now have two new items to add to my time line.
A photo taken at Ft. Knox, sometime mid 1970s.
Newspaper article reporting a T-28 found at Ft. Belvoir in 1975.

The newspaper article is technically specifically referring to a T30, no mention of the T28 - other than that the T30 was "one of five U.S. armored vehicles 'discovered' in 1975 at Fort Belvoir." I dont think its too much of a stretch to believe that the T28 was also one of those five.

I may try to see if I can dig up some old Belvoir Castle articles from '75.

Neil

- Neil_Baumgardner

- Roy_A_Lingle

Hi Folks!
We now have two new items to add to my time line.
A photo taken at Ft. Knox, sometime mid 1970s.
Newspaper article reporting a T-28 found at Ft. Belvoir in 1975.

The newspaper article is technically specifically referring to a T30, no mention of the T28 - other than that the T30 was "one of five U.S. armored vehicles 'discovered' in 1975 at Fort Belvoir." I dont think its too much of a stretch to believe that the T28 was also one of those five.

I may try to see if I can dig up some old Belvoir Castle articles from '75.

Neil

O--man, to many 'T's, and I have been awake sense 14:30 yesterday! Nuts!

Old Castle articles? Is that possible?

O-well at least there's Garry photos AND THAT IS NEW informantion.

Time to try for a short nap before my Father-in-Law arrived from Iowa.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

I'll do some digging around, next time I'm up at the Museum.

I wish I had known this yesterday, spent sometime up there. Could have gotten that data then. Oh well, it's not like I have soooo much else to do.

Retired but waaaay too busy to find another job, for now at least. HAHAHA

- Roy_A_Lingle

Old Castle articles? Is that possible?

Yes, apparently the Belvoir library has back issues. I may try to get over there to dig through them... When I dont know...

Neil

- Neil_Baumgardner

- Roy_A_Lingle

Old Castle articles? Is that possible?

Yes, apparently the Belvoir library has back issues. I may try to get over there to dig through them... When I dont know...

Neil

Hi Neil!

If you should by chance ran acrossed the article I remember from 1983/84, I would love to get a copy of it if it's NOT MUCH trouble and cost much.

If they should have an online data base, please let me, I would love to dig through it.

Maybe an even older copy might have a story about the arrival of the T-28 at Belvoir and want it was going to be used for.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

- Roy_A_Lingle

Hi Neil!

If you should by chance ran acrossed the article I remember from 1983/84, I would love to get a copy of it if it's NOT MUCH trouble and cost much.

Will do - though I assume the '75 articles will have more detail.

If they should have an online data base, please let me, I would love to dig through it.

Not that I could find...

Maybe an even older copy might have a story about the arrival of the T-28 at Belvoir and want it was going to be used for.

Yep.

Neil

- bsmart

The headlights look like they may be the rectangular ones that were first introduced in 1975 (If I remember right)

I enlisted the help of some buddies on an automotive board, and a guy with a '71 Cutlass ID'ed the car as as a '75-'77 Cutlass.

I found several T28 images on the Getty Images site this evening.

T28 and others

They're on pg 25. I've actually found quite a few other vehicles as well just by using "tanks" in the keyword search.

Hey, Doug, Roy, Tumbleweed, Neil, et al:

I just thought that I'd toss in here on this T-28 thread; it is one of my favorite AFVs of all time, and it has been my pleasure to see an photograph it more than once at Fort Knox. I have a couple items to add to this discussion; not much new info � probably just confirmations of this and that.

I first learned about the discovery of the surviving T-28 from a letter in Military Modeler magazine (is that the right name? the one affiliated with Scale Modeler). Basically, the letter noted what has been written here: that the vehicle was discovered on a range on Fort Belvoir, that the Patton Museum had obtained the 'rights' to the AFV, and that it was being transported to Fort Knox. The letter was in response to an article someone did on a scratchbuilt T-28, if I remember correctly . . . sometime in the 1975-1977 timeframe.

I was in BCT/AIT at Knox from Sept. '78 to Feb. '79. In exploring the post, I found the outer track sections tucked away alongside a building, just as they appear in the Redmon photos. I remember that the museum's StuG IIIG (or is it a StuH IIIG?) was sitting just up the hill from the track sections, missing half it's roadwheels. The T-28 engine deck was sitting nearby. This probably would have been Nov. 1978, once I got to AIT and had some time to get out and about. The various pieces were all in good shape � not shot full of holes, which is what I had feared being that the T-28 was found on a range. The paint looked original to me � it was extremely faded, and had chipped a bit here and there, with rust spots underneath. You could still make out the "T-28" painted in white on the engine deck armor, in stencils. This marking was heavily weathered as well. The open armor sections of the engine deck had weeds that had grown up through them, so the piece had sat there for at least a season.

In late Jan. - early Feb. 1979, just before I left Fort Knox bound for Germany, I found most of the rest of the T-28 at the Boatwright facility (is that name correct?), parked all by it's lonesome in the middle of the vehicle yard. Obviously, the outer track sections and the engine deck were missing, being stashed next to Building 1539 half the Post away. The main gun and enormous mantlet were missing, as was the power pack and the cranes to remove the outer track sections. Presumably these pieces were in one of the facility buildings. The driver's & TC's hatches were open. The paint matched that on the track sections & engine deck � it looked original, was heavily faded, and had some chipping and rust going on. Like the engine deck, "T-28" had been stenciled on in white paint at some time in the distant past, on the front quarters of the vehicle. In spite of these markings, some enterprising soul had felt the necessity to spray paint, in white, "T-28" on the rear and left & right side. I could just make out a very faded stencil marking that read "Target Vehicle Not Operational" on at least one side of the vehicle, where the outer track sections would go. The track tension still looked pretty good. The inside of the engine compartment was heavily rusted; there was quite a bit of rust inside the hull (crew compartment) as well. Fuel tanks were still there, along with all the various wiring and couplings, final drives, etc. In fact, other than the rust and the snow inside, it looked like you could probably have just popped that pack back in and off you go.

Since the gun mantlet and gun were missing, I had the opportunity to get a sense of the thickness of the frontal armor. It was massive; I don't think, even now, in these days of serious armor protection, that we have actual cast or RHA armor that approaches this thickness (I believe that the maximum plate thickness on the Abrams is 4"), especially not covering such a large area. I think that the Hunnicutt book gives a frontal armor thickness as 12". Quite impressive.

The vehicle interior mirrored the engine compartment; lots of rust, but most of the components appeared to still be intact, instrument panel, driver's controls, ammunition racks, etc. . . . although I think that the gun sight was missing, if I remember correctly. It was not a large vehicle inside. And I was inside it without the gun being installed � which, I would guess, would take up a huge amount of room.

I saw the T-28 again in 1983. By that time, it had been totally refurbished, new coat of paint, new "T-28" stencils in white right where the old ones had been � and sitting on a plinth in front of the Patton Museum. Pride of place, indeed. And now, with the outer track sections installed, you can gain a true feel for it's size. Mass. Very large. And yet, in spite of its size, it is a rather low-slung AFV, not terribly tall.

In writing this letter, I found that I needed to see if I could find those photos . . . and I did. Unfortunately, they were taken with a 110 camera, which wasn't a brilliant idea when you look at it from a posterity standpoint. But, most of them haven't faded too badly. The quality of the interior pictures is pretty poor, bad lighting and all. But all in all they give a good sense of what the T-28 � and most of its pieces � looked like in late 1978-early 1979.

I think that it is pretty cool that this piece of Armor History is still around.


Mark Neukom

"I enlisted the help of some buddies on an automotive board, and a guy with a '71 Cutlass ID'ed the car as as a '75-'77 Cutlass."

So with a 75-77 car in the background, and the clothes being worn I think we are looking at spring of 75 as the earliest (okay it could be the fall of 74) But that puts it more likely that the track units are from the vehicle from Belvoir

I found these in the draft manual.....






to add fuel to the T28 fire...