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Stryker at NTC
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Burik
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:43 am
Post subject: Stryker at NTC



I visited the NTC last week to follow 3rd Bde, 2nd ID as they went through a rotation to get ready for Iraq. Here is a "knocked out" scout from 1-14 Cav. The scenerio was that some insurgents took over a small town from the Iraqi security forces. with an armor depot nearby, so they had some armor. A BMP took out this scout. When I asked the VC how he let a BMP take him out, he said he was escorting a convoy back to post when he got hit. He said he could have taken out the BMP if he had his Javelin, but the CO took it from him. I don't know, if this were the "Legacy" army then the scouts would have had some anti-armor capability, like a 25mm gun at least.

Reminds me of early WWII German scounts who did not have much besides MGs to defend themselves with. And back then in 1939 and 1940 other armies did not have the punch that is out there today, so at least the Germans had a chance. I would not want to be a scout in a Stryker (other than Iraq where the threat is really non-existent).

Does anybody know what the code is on the corner of the vehicle? Does it possibly have to do w/ shipping, a la the codes used in OIF1. It definitely is not a serial number as that is on the front hull and is different.

Bob
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:23 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC

The code you speak of is the USA number, if you are refering to the black stencil on the OD paint (JO00IT). I have a couple vehicles on display here at NTC that have comparable USA #'s, (JJ03YM, JJ05UF, JZ002H, etc...). Even if he had his Javelin, OPFOR and the "Insurgents" of the NTC are quite good. I have taken out a Marine LAV here back in summer of 04 with relative ease with 155 shells buried under the road suface on a one lane bridge by East Gate village. Marines ahd actually walked over and stepped on the round while I acted as an inocent civilian. Once the vehicle moved over the bridge which had been "cleared" by the ground troops, "BOOM"!. The OC's "killed" the vehicle and a couple ground troops as we walked away. Another good day for the OPFOR!!!

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Burik
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:12 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC

And I came upon an OC who was MFing the men at a checkpoint at Junction City for making a tactical mistake I will not go into here. It was amusing to listen to him, "This town is grey now, but it will be going black soon!"

Man, and those OCs are hardcore. Freezing temps and no doors or windshields. They all have heater hoses tucked into their BDUs and whatnot! I have had my fill of driving in Humvees over rough ground. I had to ride like I would a horse, anticipating the bumps and raising my butt off the seat to take the bump. Also, almost rolled over when a turn came up going at speed in the dark - whoaaa, hold on! If it weren't for the seatbelt I would have got tossed out on that slide since those seats are damn small! Or maybe it was my big fat butt that did not fit.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 8:26 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC

- Burik

I visited the NTC last week to follow 3rd Bde, 2nd ID as they went through a rotation to get ready for Iraq. Here is a "knocked out" scout from 1-14 Cav. The scenerio was that some insurgents took over a small town from the Iraqi security forces. with an armor depot nearby, so they had some armor. A BMP took out this scout. When I asked the VC how he let a BMP take him out, he said he was escorting a convoy back to post when he got hit. He said he could have taken out the BMP if he had his Javelin, but the CO took it from him. I don't know, if this were the "Legacy" army then the scouts would have had some anti-armor capability, like a 25mm gun at least.
Bob


Hi Bob! Hi Folks!

Thanks for the photo of a M1127 RCV Stryker.

Interesting that the C.O. took the VC's AT-4 Javelin away from him.
That would be like a WW II German Commander or a Legacy Commander taking the auto cannon off the scout vehicle. Sad
The AT-4 is the primary anti-armor weapon/round of ammo for scout RCVs and infantry ICVs of the Stryker Brigades. Puzzling. I wonder why the VC didn't use his Scout Scope (I think that system is called a RVSS?) to ID the BMP and then take the convoy his was escorting around it? Neutral

- Burik

Reminds me of early WWII German scounts who did not have much besides MGs to defend themselves with. And back then in 1939 and 1940 other armies did not have the punch that is out there today, so at least the Germans had a chance. I would not want to be a scout in a Stryker (other than Iraq where the threat is really non-existent).

Bob


If not a Stryker, what do you think would be a better scout vehicle?

How about using a M-151 mounting a M-60 machine gun? Rolling Eyes

The Stryker Brigades are not designed for something like the Warsaw Pack vis NATO full blown fire fight, putting them into something like that would be a major mis-used. But then we have taken an Airborne Infantry BCT and thrown it out into the desert for use as a speed bump to stop or delay an armored attack south out of Kuwait. An SBCT would have a much better chance of pulling off a delaying action like that with a lot fewer casualties. The Stryker FOVs/SBCTs adds another tool to Combat Commander's tool box. No vehicle or system is prefect for all conditions. Confused

Unless we are talking about the greatest Scout vehicle ever. The M114 Lingle.

Any chance you where able to take some other photos of the NTC during your visit? Razz

Just my 2 cents for the discussion. Smile
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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Burik
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC

Roy:

I was wondering the same thing about the BMP. I was not in a position to really quiz him, as we were pulling out, and he probably would have gotten ticked off with too many "insulting" questions. As Sgt Button noted, those OPFOR guys are pretty good. Maybe they popped out from behind good cover before he could do anything about it.

The whole Stryker concept perplexes me a little. The Marines have a darned good vehicle in the LAV and it has plenty of firepower and is light at the same time. Why can't the Stryker have the Bradley turret on it? I would think it would still fit in a C130, which seems to be a major requirement. I know the threats out there are not like the old Soviet days, but the N Koreans are pretty strong, and the Syrians, and the Iranians. Sending a Stryker Bde to be the first point of contact would be even worse than the 82nd w/ their Sheridans since the Sheridans at least could shoot back. But I have no problem w/ the Stryker's use in Iraq. I have first hand experience w/ how quiet it is, and so it is great for raids and such. Just as long as the Stryker guys are not expected to go up against enemy w/ armor or anti-armor capabilities... Plus, it's offroad capabilites are not as good as say a Bradley or M113, and it may be in a tough spot in a built up area since it can not make tight turns like a tracked vehicle. But, wheeled vehicles are not as tough to maintain. So, yes, there is no perfect vehicle. As long as it is not misused...

Yes, I have lots more photos. I can share some here. I plan on doing an article or two in Military Modelling of England coinciding w/ the new Trumpeter kit coming out. I also plan on doing a photo history book on the NTC. Digital cameras are the greatest. THere is no such thing as wasted film, and LOTS of photos can be taken, as long as you have enough flash cards or flash card space. One version I did not get enough good shots of were the engineer vehicles. But, I am invited up to Ft Lewis (I live in Portland, OR) to see some more at the motorpool. I need to see some with the slat armor. I think I have a coulpe of cool shots of an FA unit during a live fire exercise taking down a small village.

Bob
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Burik
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:44 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC

i49.photobucket.com/al...gas011.jpg

I took this shot after a long day, so I was too lazy to get out of the OC Humvee, but the OCs have no windshields, so no problem. It is the FA guys mounting up onto the Strykers from the Recon unit that was attached to them. Live ammo, so everybody is pumped up after a couple of dry runs. The Recon unit is not the Cav guys though, like the first photo in this thread. I am told this is a newer idea, and you can see there are a mixture of vehicles in a small unit/platoon.

i49.photobucket.com/al...gas010.jpg

This second shot is the same guys, but earlier. This was one of the dry runs.
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Burik
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:47 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC





Sorry about that.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 1:58 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC



"If not a Stryker, what do you think would be a better scout vehicle?"

How about using a M-151 mounting a M-60 machine gun? Rolling Eyes


Ha! BTDT....no thanky, Roy! At least, not without the added protection of canvas doors....

I have had my fill of driving in Humvees over rough ground. I had to ride like I would a horse, anticipating the bumps and raising my butt off the seat to take the bump. Also, almost rolled over when a turn came up going at speed in the dark - whoaaa, hold on! If it weren't for the seatbelt I would have got tossed out on that slide since those seats are damn small!


Bob...now we get to the heart of the M151 question. If you thing the Humvee is a bad ride, get in the back of an M151 sometime! Laughing
...and don't think about taking turns at speed...just don't.

Oh....what's a "seat belt"? Shocked

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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:54 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC

This rotation you took the pictures of was the first to utilize "live ammo" to within 200 meters of the towns. There was very strict compliance with who could go and be where at certain times. OC's played a much larger and important role than usual because of this ammo training. I know of a few 1SG's that were more worried about their troops being out in the "box" with ammo than they were about being in Iraq with ammo, and they were vocal about it at the command and staff meeting. As much as you try to replicate and make it seem like a combat enviroment, there is still that part in the back of your mind that knows your not, and therefore soldiers aren't always as careful with their weapons as they should be. But so far, so good, no ones been hurt and I haven't heard of any accidental discharges yet. Believe me, when they happen, we'll know, that kind of incident spread like wild fire.

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC

- Burik
Roy:

The whole Stryker concept perplexes me a little. The Marines have a darned good vehicle in the LAV and it has plenty of firepower and is light at the same time. Why can't the Stryker have the Bradley turret on it? I would think it would still fit in a C130, which seems to be a major requirement.
Bob


Hi Bob! Hi Folks!

It's not good to compair the Marines with the Army when it comes to 8x8 armored cars.

The Marines are using their LAV-25s in Recon Battalions. They only carry four dismount Scouts in the back of those vehicles. With the Delco 25 mm turret, there is ONLY room for six combat loaded Marines. One of the major problems learned with the Bradley and that turret is there isn't enough room to carry a squad of infantry (nine men) in a Bradley Infantry Company. The Stryker could be fitted with a Bradley turret or a Delco 25 turret and still fit inside a C-130. The Canadain Forces use LAV IIIs with the Delco 25 turret and we have been told by some of them that those vehicles do fit inside a C-130. The Army could have added a 25mm turret but it would reduce the number of troops a Stryker can carry and that would require more Strykers to carry the number of infantry men in the BCT. As for the Scouts (I to would have liked to have seen the M1127 RCV fitted with a 25mm turret) but that would add weight to the supply tail. More ammo (in this case, only used by the Scouts). More parts to repair things (in this case, again limited to only the Scout vehicles). The idea is to get an infantry brigade in the air with the least amount of lift aircarft and tied up the least amount of aircraft required to support and resupply the BCT once it is there.

Think of a Stryker BCT as light infantry unit (as in walking and must carry almost everything on their backs) that has been upgraded with trucks that have some armored protection. This is an upgrade of light infantry, not a down grade of mech infantry with lighter vehicles. The Scouts in the SBCT are light scouts who will need to use movement and concealment to do their job. They are not heavy Armored Cavarly Scouts who can fight for information or conduct an ecomany of force operation. That VC you talked with would have been conducting that convoy escort mission with a M151 or Hummer if he was still in a light infantry brigade. The BMP would have still got him if he was not watching and drove out into it's kill zone. With a light infantry scout unit, you have walking Scouts and light wheeled vehicle mounted scouts. The Stryker RCV can carry a lot of AT-4s, more troops in each vehicle, carry that very heavy Long Range Scout Surveillance System (LRAS3, the super scout scope I was talking about in my other post). When thinking about a light infantry brigade and the scouts units, Stryker is a major upgrade.

- Burik

I know the threats out there are not like the old Soviet days, but the N Koreans are pretty strong, and the Syrians, and the Iranians. Sending a Stryker Bde to be the first point of contact would be even worse than the 82nd w/ their Sheridans since the Sheridans at least could shoot back.
Bob


Sending a Stryker BCT would have been worse that the 82nd w/their Sheridans?
Hold on here David! First of all we are NOT talking about all of the 82nd Airborne Division. We are talking about ONE BCT from the 82nd. About the same number of infantry, maybe a little bit less than what a SBCT now has. Sheirdans? We are not talking about the complete battalion. We are talking about ONE tank company, divided three ways with four tanks support each battalion of dismouted infantry. Dismounted infantry that could only get out of the way of a heavy division attack by digging in and keeping their heads down or using their feet and trying to run away in an open desert. It would have been very hard for that BCT to conduct a delaying action once the troops had been dropped off. A SBCT on the other hand would have been able to load up the infantry and move them to one delaying position after another. Using AT-4s to reduce the number of attacking AFVs.

- Burik

But I have no problem w/ the Stryker's use in Iraq. I have first hand experience w/ how quiet it is, and so it is great for raids and such. Just as long as the Stryker guys are not expected to go up against enemy w/ armor or anti-armor capabilities... Plus, it's offroad capabilites are not as good as say a Bradley or M113, and it may be in a tough spot in a built up area since it can not make tight turns like a tracked vehicle. But, wheeled vehicles are not as tough to maintain. So, yes, there is no perfect vehicle. As long as it is not misused...
Bob



When it comes to military operations, one must always be ready to use what is available to do what ever must be done. Someday, possible somewhere those Stryker BCTs may end up facing a heavy armored force and those troopers had better know how to use what they have to do the best they can. Task Force Smith and the Battle of the Bulge are two possible examples where units where tasked to do things they where never designed for.

- Burik

Yes, I have lots more photos. I can share some here. I plan on doing an article or two in Military Modelling of England coinciding w/ the new Trumpeter kit coming out. I also plan on doing a photo history book on the NTC. Digital cameras are the greatest. THere is no such thing as wasted film, and LOTS of photos can be taken, as long as you have enough flash cards or flash card space. One version I did not get enough good shots of were the engineer vehicles. But, I am invited up to Ft Lewis (I live in Portland, OR) to see some more at the motorpool. I need to see some with the slat armor. I think I have a coulpe of cool shots of an FA unit during a live fire exercise taking down a small village.
Bob


Super, can not wait to see what you can share with us all.

Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Tue Mar 07, 2006 7:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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Burik
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 4:59 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC

Roy, well said. Point taken.

Cheers.
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:04 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC

It just hit me that these Strykers do not have the bar armor on them. Seems that if they are training for deployment they would try to have vehicles equiped the same way as they will use in the field. I can see the extra size affecting everything from how the vehicle drives to how you dismount and clear the vehicle.

Just seems like a big oversight to me

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:22 am
Post subject: Re: Stryker at NTC

- bsmart
It just hit me that these Strykers do not have the bar armor on them. Seems that if they are training for deployment they would try to have vehicles equiped the same way as they will use in the field. I can see the extra size affecting everything from how the vehicle drives to how you dismount and clear the vehicle.

Just seems like a big oversight to me


Hi Bob! Hi Folks!

It's not an oversight. It's another case of NOT ENOUGH MONEY Evil or Very Mad . One of the lessons learned by the first two SBCTs was the drivers need some training with all that extra bar armor. The corrective plan is to buy a few sets for the state side units so all drivers can get some experence driving with the cages installed. Besides, the bird cages are an intrim Evil or Very Mad fix, the Army is working on next phase of protection.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
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