±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 769
Total: 769
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: CPGlang
07: Downloads
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Photo Gallery
12: Downloads
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Home
16: CPGlang
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Home
22: Home
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Photo Gallery
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: News Archive
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Downloads
40: Community Forums
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: CPGlang
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Photo Gallery
53: Photo Gallery
54: CPGlang
55: CPGlang
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: CPGlang
59: CPGlang
60: CPGlang
61: CPGlang
62: Photo Gallery
63: CPGlang
64: Community Forums
65: CPGlang
66: Home
67: Photo Gallery
68: Community Forums
69: Your Account
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: CPGlang
73: Community Forums
74: Photo Gallery
75: CPGlang
76: Community Forums
77: Home
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Downloads
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Photo Gallery
91: Community Forums
92: CPGlang
93: Community Forums
94: Photo Gallery
95: Statistics
96: CPGlang
97: Community Forums
98: CPGlang
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Community Forums
102: Downloads
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Your Account
107: CPGlang
108: Community Forums
109: CPGlang
110: Photo Gallery
111: Community Forums
112: Community Forums
113: Photo Gallery
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Downloads
119: Community Forums
120: Photo Gallery
121: Community Forums
122: CPGlang
123: Home
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: CPGlang
128: Community Forums
129: Photo Gallery
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Member Screenshots
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Home
139: Downloads
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: Community Forums
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Your Account
148: CPGlang
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: CPGlang
155: CPGlang
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Home
159: Photo Gallery
160: Home
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Photo Gallery
164: Downloads
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Photo Gallery
168: Photo Gallery
169: Community Forums
170: Home
171: Home
172: CPGlang
173: Home
174: Member Screenshots
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Downloads
181: Community Forums
182: CPGlang
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: CPGlang
186: CPGlang
187: Your Account
188: Community Forums
189: Your Account
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Downloads
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Your Account
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: CPGlang
201: CPGlang
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Photo Gallery
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: CPGlang
225: Home
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Photo Gallery
230: Photo Gallery
231: Photo Gallery
232: Downloads
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Downloads
237: Community Forums
238: News Archive
239: Community Forums
240: Photo Gallery
241: Photo Gallery
242: Community Forums
243: CPGlang
244: Community Forums
245: Downloads
246: Community Forums
247: CPGlang
248: CPGlang
249: Member Screenshots
250: CPGlang
251: Photo Gallery
252: Home
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Home
264: Community Forums
265: Home
266: Community Forums
267: Photo Gallery
268: Home
269: Home
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: CPGlang
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Home
280: Downloads
281: Photo Gallery
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Your Account
288: CPGlang
289: Home
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Photo Gallery
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Home
303: Home
304: Downloads
305: Downloads
306: Community Forums
307: CPGlang
308: Community Forums
309: CPGlang
310: Home
311: CPGlang
312: Home
313: Photo Gallery
314: Community Forums
315: Home
316: Photo Gallery
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Your Account
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: CPGlang
326: Community Forums
327: Home
328: CPGlang
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Photo Gallery
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Member Screenshots
339: CPGlang
340: Home
341: Photo Gallery
342: Downloads
343: Photo Gallery
344: Home
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: CPGlang
349: Community Forums
350: CPGlang
351: Home
352: Home
353: Photo Gallery
354: CPGlang
355: Community Forums
356: CPGlang
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Your Account
361: Community Forums
362: Community Forums
363: Home
364: Community Forums
365: Photo Gallery
366: Photo Gallery
367: CPGlang
368: Community Forums
369: Community Forums
370: Photo Gallery
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Photo Gallery
375: Photo Gallery
376: CPGlang
377: Photo Gallery
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: CPGlang
381: Photo Gallery
382: Community Forums
383: CPGlang
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: CPGlang
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Photo Gallery
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Community Forums
395: CPGlang
396: Community Forums
397: Downloads
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: CPGlang
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Photo Gallery
408: Community Forums
409: Home
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: CPGlang
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Photo Gallery
418: Your Account
419: Community Forums
420: CPGlang
421: Home
422: Community Forums
423: Photo Gallery
424: Home
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Photo Gallery
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Home
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: CPGlang
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Home
441: Community Forums
442: Member Screenshots
443: Home
444: Your Account
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Photo Gallery
448: Home
449: Photo Gallery
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Home
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: CPGlang
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Downloads
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: CPGlang
469: Photo Gallery
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Photo Gallery
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: CPGlang
479: Home
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Photo Gallery
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: CPGlang
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Photo Gallery
500: Community Forums
501: Photo Gallery
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Downloads
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Home
509: Community Forums
510: Home
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Photo Gallery
519: Statistics
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: News Archive
528: Photo Gallery
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Photo Gallery
537: Community Forums
538: Photo Gallery
539: CPGlang
540: CPGlang
541: CPGlang
542: Community Forums
543: Home
544: Photo Gallery
545: Photo Gallery
546: Community Forums
547: Photo Gallery
548: CPGlang
549: Home
550: Community Forums
551: Home
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Home
555: Community Forums
556: Your Account
557: Community Forums
558: Photo Gallery
559: Member Screenshots
560: Downloads
561: Community Forums
562: CPGlang
563: Your Account
564: Community Forums
565: Photo Gallery
566: Home
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Downloads
571: Home
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Photo Gallery
576: Community Forums
577: Home
578: CPGlang
579: CPGlang
580: Community Forums
581: Home
582: Community Forums
583: CPGlang
584: Community Forums
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Photo Gallery
590: Community Forums
591: Home
592: CPGlang
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: CPGlang
596: Photo Gallery
597: CPGlang
598: Community Forums
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Member Screenshots
603: Photo Gallery
604: Community Forums
605: Photo Gallery
606: Community Forums
607: Member Screenshots
608: Community Forums
609: Photo Gallery
610: Your Account
611: Community Forums
612: Downloads
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Home
622: Community Forums
623: Home
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: CPGlang
629: Photo Gallery
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Home
634: Community Forums
635: Downloads
636: Home
637: Photo Gallery
638: Community Forums
639: Home
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Home
645: Community Forums
646: Home
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Home
656: Home
657: CPGlang
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Home
663: Photo Gallery
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: CPGlang
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Home
672: Community Forums
673: Member Screenshots
674: Community Forums
675: Downloads
676: Community Forums
677: Photo Gallery
678: Community Forums
679: Home
680: Community Forums
681: Photo Gallery
682: Photo Gallery
683: Community Forums
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Home
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Photo Gallery
696: Photo Gallery
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: Photo Gallery
701: Home
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: CPGlang
705: Downloads
706: Community Forums
707: CPGlang
708: Community Forums
709: Community Forums
710: Community Forums
711: Community Forums
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: Community Forums
715: Community Forums
716: Community Forums
717: Community Forums
718: Home
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: Community Forums
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Home
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Community Forums
730: Member Screenshots
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Community Forums
737: Home
738: Community Forums
739: Photo Gallery
740: Your Account
741: CPGlang
742: Home
743: Community Forums
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Community Forums
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums
750: Community Forums
751: Downloads
752: Community Forums
753: Community Forums
754: Community Forums
755: Community Forums
756: Community Forums
757: Community Forums
758: Community Forums
759: Downloads
760: CPGlang
761: Community Forums
762: Downloads
763: Home
764: Community Forums
765: Community Forums
766: Home
767: Photo Gallery
768: Statistics
769: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M60A1E1 - M60A2
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JeffStringer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:02 pm
Post subject: M60A1E1 - M60A2

Forgive me if this has already discussed before, but why were these referred to as a "Starship"?

It's always been a favorite American tank of mine and I just thought this would be the right place to ask! Mr. Green
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:12 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

A favorite topic of mine, Jeff.

I served on the M60A2 Initial Production Test at the Armor Board in '73 and the "Starship" term hadn't been invented or applied yet, but I'm sure I know how it came to be so applied....

Because the vehicle was extremely ambitious for the budget available to it, the level of maturity (or immaturity, I should say) of the technology being utilized, and because in the context of the then-current tanking, it was so stupifyingly complex and unreliable that it rivaled early spacecraft.

For all it's shortcomings, as I've previously stated about both the M551 Sheridan AND the M60A2, we likely wouldn't have the M1 Abrams we have today without the pioneering ground broken and backdrop of experience provided by both of those vehicles. They were interim steps, done on the cheap, and too soon, to deliver what was promised, but that was made good when the M1 was designed.

FWIW, both the M60A2 and the Sheridan looked positively BADA$$ in their day....gotta' count for something, right? Wink

That's my $.02
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
JeffStringer
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 637

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:00 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

Yep ... just reading about how dangerous it was to fire both tanks earned a seperate level of respect!

And they DO look assume too.


Thanks for the info Doug!
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:10 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

The only place I have seen the term 'Starship' used in documents is in relation to the M60E2 which had the driver in the turret as well....

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:46 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

- JimWeb
The only place I have seen the term 'Starship' used in documents is in relation to the M60E2 which had the driver in the turret as well....


The only place I have seen the term "M60E2" is on page 179 of Hunnicutt's "Patton" to describe the interim nomenclature of an M60A1 that has been modified to accept the M81 gun and Shillelagh system. There was no provision for relocating the driver in this vehicle of which I'm aware.

Is it possible you are referring to the MBT70?

If you review guestbooks and such areas of the 1st or 3AD website as you can access, you will find references to the M60A2 as the "Starship". Unfortunately, they seem to have password protected access to many of their features recently. I've heard many a discussion on the forum making this reference, though it was all after my service. (Did the use of this term coincide with the Battlestar Galactica TV series, maybe?)

I may have a look at the USAREUR website again....
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:16 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

The only place I have seen the term "M60E2" is on page 179 of Hunnicutt's "Patton" to describe the interim nomenclature of an M60A1 that has been modified to accept the M81 gun and Shillelagh system. There was no provision for relocating the driver in this vehicle of which I'm aware.

Is it possible you are referring to the MBT70?


No! The M60E2 is the M60 fitted with the ICFC turret.

Even Hunnicutt missed things (dare I say that here???) Smile

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:25 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

- JimWeb
The only place I have seen the term "M60E2" is on page 179 of Hunnicutt's "Patton" to describe the interim nomenclature of an M60A1 that has been modified to accept the M81 gun and Shillelagh system. There was no provision for relocating the driver in this vehicle of which I'm aware.

Is it possible you are referring to the MBT70?


No! The M60E2 is the M60 fitted with the ICFC turret.

Even Hunnicutt missed things (dare I say that here???) Smile


Whoa! Looks like a giant Sheridan turret with a position for another crewmen. Did this work the same as the MBT70 turret with the same attendant "motion sickness" problems? You'd think something would have been gained from that experience that would have ruled it out on the MBT70....was this operated enough, with driver in that position, to reveal this problem? I can't understand how those issues would only have been manifested on one vehicle and not the other...

It would also seem, from that picture, that the driver would be blind in certain angles with the loaders' hatch open, and under any circumstances with cupola in the same plane with turret in some positons.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:08 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

- Doug_Kibbey
- JimWeb
The only place I have seen the term "M60E2" is on page 179 of Hunnicutt's "Patton" to describe the interim nomenclature of an M60A1 that has been modified to accept the M81 gun and Shillelagh system. There was no provision for relocating the driver in this vehicle of which I'm aware.

Is it possible you are referring to the MBT70?


No! The M60E2 is the M60 fitted with the ICFC turret.

Even Hunnicutt missed things (dare I say that here???) Smile


Whoa! Looks like a giant Sheridan turret with a position for another crewmen. Did this work the same as the MBT70 turret with the same attendant "motion sickness" problems? You'd think something would have been gained from that experience that would have ruled it out on the MBT70....was this operated enough, with driver in that position, to reveal this problem? I can't understand how those issues would only have been manifested on one vehicle and not the other...

It would also seem, from that picture, that the driver would be blind in certain angles with the loaders' hatch open, and under any circumstances with cupola in the same plane with turret in some positons.


The turret was first tested on the T95 family.

Notice the 20mm cannon, just like on the MBT-70...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

Neil,
Timeline-wise, when was the turret based driving station first actually used, and were there reports of the "disorientation" problems by driver's prior to the MBT-70?

Doug
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:54 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

As a pre-Chobham armor design the in-line turret probably wasn't half bad. What did the thing in was the awful gun/launcher and all that immature high technology. Basically their reach exceeded their grasp design-wise (a common complain about U.S. designs from back then). If only they had instead installed a 105mm (120?) gun and low profile cupola the design would probably still be in use today among 2nd eschelon units in Turkey & Israel.
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:57 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

- Doug_Kibbey
Neil,
Timeline-wise, when was the turret based driving station first actually used, and were there reports of the "disorientation" problems by driver's prior to the MBT-70?

Doug


I'll have to check my copy of Hunnicutt's Abrams (just got it off Ebay!) when I get back from travel... I suspect even if it was encountered, they probably thought it could be overcome somehow...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:29 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

The turret was first tested on the T95 family.

Notice the 20mm cannon, just like on the MBT-70.


Same concept - different turret

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:39 pm
Post subject: Re: M60A1E1 - M60A2

So, the M60A2 was inadequate and unreliable, but that was just insane from the get-go!
What in the name of all that is holy were they thinking?! Rolling Eyes


OK...the ladders were a nice touch...
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum