±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 488
Total: 488
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Photo Gallery
03: Home
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Community Forums
07: Member Screenshots
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Home
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Community Forums
15: Member Screenshots
16: Downloads
17: Community Forums
18: Home
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Home
23: Community Forums
24: Home
25: Downloads
26: Home
27: Home
28: Home
29: Downloads
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Photo Gallery
34: Home
35: Home
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Home
41: Member Screenshots
42: Home
43: Home
44: Home
45: Home
46: Home
47: Home
48: Home
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Member Screenshots
52: Home
53: Home
54: Home
55: Home
56: Member Screenshots
57: Downloads
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Home
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Photo Gallery
68: Community Forums
69: News
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Home
74: Home
75: Community Forums
76: Downloads
77: Community Forums
78: Photo Gallery
79: Home
80: Home
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: Home
84: Home
85: Home
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Member Screenshots
103: Photo Gallery
104: Community Forums
105: Downloads
106: Community Forums
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Home
114: Community Forums
115: Home
116: Photo Gallery
117: Photo Gallery
118: Home
119: Downloads
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Member Screenshots
129: Downloads
130: Photo Gallery
131: Photo Gallery
132: Photo Gallery
133: Home
134: Home
135: Community Forums
136: Home
137: Home
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Home
143: Statistics
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Downloads
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Photo Gallery
151: Home
152: Home
153: Home
154: Home
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: News Archive
159: Community Forums
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Downloads
164: Community Forums
165: Photo Gallery
166: Member Screenshots
167: Home
168: Member Screenshots
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Downloads
172: Home
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Home
176: Downloads
177: Community Forums
178: Home
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Home
185: Home
186: Home
187: Home
188: Home
189: Home
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Member Screenshots
193: Your Account
194: Home
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Home
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Home
201: Photo Gallery
202: Home
203: Home
204: Downloads
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: Home
208: Home
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Home
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Member Screenshots
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Home
221: Home
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Community Forums
225: News
226: Home
227: Home
228: Home
229: Member Screenshots
230: Downloads
231: Downloads
232: Community Forums
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Home
236: Home
237: Home
238: Home
239: Downloads
240: Home
241: Photo Gallery
242: Community Forums
243: Downloads
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Photo Gallery
247: Photo Gallery
248: Home
249: Photo Gallery
250: Community Forums
251: Home
252: Photo Gallery
253: Home
254: Home
255: Home
256: Home
257: Community Forums
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: Downloads
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Home
266: Home
267: Home
268: Home
269: Community Forums
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Home
275: News
276: Home
277: Home
278: Downloads
279: Home
280: Member Screenshots
281: Home
282: Home
283: Community Forums
284: Home
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Photo Gallery
288: Community Forums
289: Home
290: Community Forums
291: Photo Gallery
292: Downloads
293: Home
294: Home
295: Community Forums
296: Home
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Photo Gallery
301: Community Forums
302: Downloads
303: News Archive
304: Home
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: News
308: Home
309: Home
310: Community Forums
311: Home
312: Downloads
313: Community Forums
314: Home
315: Home
316: Community Forums
317: Home
318: Home
319: Photo Gallery
320: Photo Gallery
321: Downloads
322: Home
323: Community Forums
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: Photo Gallery
327: Home
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Home
332: Home
333: Home
334: Home
335: Home
336: Home
337: Home
338: Home
339: Home
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Community Forums
344: Home
345: Home
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Downloads
351: Photo Gallery
352: News Archive
353: Photo Gallery
354: Downloads
355: Home
356: Home
357: Home
358: Home
359: Home
360: Home
361: Home
362: Home
363: Home
364: Home
365: Community Forums
366: Home
367: Downloads
368: Photo Gallery
369: Home
370: Community Forums
371: Home
372: Photo Gallery
373: Home
374: Photo Gallery
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Home
379: Home
380: Community Forums
381: Home
382: Community Forums
383: Photo Gallery
384: Downloads
385: Home
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Photo Gallery
390: Home
391: Home
392: Home
393: Home
394: Downloads
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Home
399: Photo Gallery
400: Community Forums
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Home
404: Home
405: Home
406: Home
407: Photo Gallery
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Home
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Home
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Home
417: Home
418: Your Account
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Community Forums
423: Home
424: Home
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Downloads
431: Community Forums
432: Photo Gallery
433: Photo Gallery
434: Home
435: Photo Gallery
436: Community Forums
437: Home
438: Home
439: Community Forums
440: Home
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Home
445: Home
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Home
449: Photo Gallery
450: Home
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: News
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Home
457: Home
458: Community Forums
459: Home
460: Community Forums
461: Home
462: Statistics
463: Community Forums
464: Member Screenshots
465: Photo Gallery
466: Community Forums
467: Downloads
468: Home
469: Home
470: Home
471: Community Forums
472: Home
473: Community Forums
474: Home
475: Home
476: Home
477: Member Screenshots
478: Community Forums
479: Home
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Home
483: Member Screenshots
484: Community Forums
485: Photo Gallery
486: Community Forums
487: Home
488: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Jinx
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 12:45 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

Assuming that is an APFSDS projectile on the far left, is the short cartridge the one that launches it? Is there anything that goes in between the two when they are loaded into the breech?
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:43 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

Just a guess but I would assume they rechambered the tank mounted 120mm gun to use a shorter case than the 120mm AA gun. This would be desirable because of the cramped space in a tank turret. With newer more poereful propellent a shorter case could still provide a high MV.

Is the round on the left a HEAT round? I don't think APFSDS was around when the 120mm gunned M103 was in service was it? The shape of the front end of the round looks like a HEAT round with the stand off nose that was common in that era. I know it is desirable for a HEAT round not to spin so I would guess that the fins were ther to stabilize the round instead of using the rifling in the gun barrel

again the above is just my guess as to what and why.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:59 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

As bsmart said, the projectile to the far left is a HEAT round with a stand-off probe. That's what HEAT rounds have looked like for about 40 years now - even Russian rounds!
An explanation for the shorter cartridge case may be that the HEAT round used a smaller charge than the AP. They usually do. The Russian 125mm gun with its split rounds gets around that problem by packing a portion of the propellant with the APFSDS round itself, so both the HEAT and AP can share the same charge. The dramatically different case size for the 120mm may have been so the loader couldn't accidentally mistake a big AP charge for the HEAT charge. For all I know firing a HEAT round with a full AP charge may have been dangerous! ...Just a guess on my part.


Last edited by mike_Duplessis on Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
Jinx
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:00 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

Oops, my error. That is a HEAT round and not an APFSDS. (Hanging head)

I still am having trouble picturing how this works when separately loaded. Does the loader ram in the HEAT round first, then ram in the cartridge afterward? It doesn't seem as if it would be easy to ram in the projectile by hand, what with the fins and all. Any help with that?
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

- Jinx
Oops, my error. That is a HEAT round and not an APFSDS. (Hanging head)

I still am having trouble picturing how this works when separately loaded. Does the loader ram in the HEAT round first, then ram in the cartridge afterward? It doesn't seem as if it would be easy to ram in the projectile by hand, what with the fins and all. Any help with that?


Its all one piece ammo.

The image has the rounds seperated to show the actual projectiles size.

The loader just removes the round from the rack swings it around (or flips the round) and slams it in the chamber. Simple process.

As for interior space, I've been in an M103 on several occasions. I felt it was hugely 'roomie' as compared to the Abrams.

The TCs position being an amazing sub-area in the rear of the turret. I was envious of all the places to 'stow' personal convience items (ie 'munchies' and the such...) LOTTA ROOM!!

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:20 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

The 120mm ammo thing is confusing because some guns (the oscillating turret designs) used one-piece rounds and some used split rounds for the same gun type. The reason why the rounds were split were partially to do with unweildy length, but also to do with their weight. Load 8 or 9 70+ pound one piece AP rounds in quick succession and you'll be ready to lie down for a nap! It seems round weight doesn't usually exceed 50 lbs. if they're going to be manually loaded (artillery doesn't count).

Maybe Marine M103s were different and used the 1-piece rounds because jar-heads are just more manly than the rest of us. Wink

I'd swear that either Conqueror or M103 (or maybe just the prototype) used two loaders in an efort to speed up ROF. But I can't recall which it was.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:53 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

Hi Folks!

Don't forgot, the M-103 with all it's room had TWO loaders.

Where is OldTop when we need him. He would know what type of ammo the M-103 used.

Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:26 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

I haven't 'talked' him since the switch over...

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
tankmodeler
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 42
Location: Ontario
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

The 103 used two-piece ammo for all rounds and had two loaders in the monsterous turret. The Conq was the same as it useed the same gun.

I must say I find it strange that the HEAT round had a shorter case. I know the charge in the case was smaller because the velocity of the HEAT round doesn't affect it's penetration, but most breech designs seal the breech from the propellant gasses by the mouth of the case expanding under the pressure and sealing at the forward lip of the case. If that lip is in two places, you have to make bloody sure that two places in the breech are machined precisely enough to do the job and that the wear and tear of normal firing doesn't degrade that second location so that gasses bypass the block and get back into the turret. The shorter case would also mean that the normal breech surface would be exposed to the gasses from the shorter HEAT casing. Very bad for the metal and for the abilitty to seal the breech.

Makes no sense. I'm not sure that it could be done for an operational vehicle.

Are we sure the casing hasn't been cut down and then mounted inthe display? Sometimes displays are made up from parts laying around or refurbished from older displays and are not necessarily totally accurate. Just a thought.

Paul Roberts

_________________
Paul Roberts
President
Armor Modeling and Preservation Society
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:41 am
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

I was at Aberdeen today and another volunteer who is more interested in ammunition than tanks or small arms was there (He is a professional EOD guy). I asked him if he knew anything about this but couldn't bring up a computer where we were. He said he had recently found out about the difference in the two 120mm cases and there is a reason. He is going to dig out the information on it and leave it at the museum for me. When I get the information (It may be a few weeks) I'll pass it on.

Where was the display?

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:02 am
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Folks!

Don't forgot, the M-103 with all it's room had TWO loaders.

Where is OldTop when we need him. He would know what type of ammo the M-103 used.

Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile


You got me curious, so I searched the old forum and sent "oletop" an email just today...lessee' what happens....
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 1:33 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

I finally dug out my copy of Hunnicutt's "FIREPOWER" (yes, I own a rare precious edition of FIREPOWER) and here's what I found on the rounds:

The complete AP-T M358 (two piece) round weighted a hefty 107 pounds. The shot alone weighed 50.85 pounds. AP and training shells used the propelling charge M46, which used a case 34.7" long (the shot was 18.76" long, making the total round a bit under 4 1/2 feet long").

The HE and WP shells used propelling charge T21E1, which also had a case 34.7" long.

The HEAT round M469 pictured above didn't come about til the Marine upgrade of the M103 in the early 60s. The HEAT shell was 29 inches long. The propelling chage that went with it was just 26.35" long. Special round stowage had to be installed for these odd-size rounds.

To show the difference between the long and short propelling charges, the AP-T M348 round had a muzzle energy of 4,318 foot-tons. The HEAT shell's muzzle energy was just half that at 2,184 foot-tons.
Back to top
View user's profile
Jinx
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 186
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

In comparison, does anybody know right off the weights of the various rounds for the 120mm Rheinmetall gun in the Abrams and Leopard 2?
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

I want to say the current 120mm gun rounds weigh about 50 pounds more-or-less. The benefit of not using an old-fashioned solid AP shot or a brass case. Someone who knows better should confirm or deny this, though.
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:55 pm
Post subject: Re: M103 Tank Ammo (120mm)

Mike

120mm HEAT(M830:HEAT-MP-T) 53.4 lbs
120mm SABOT(M829A1: APFSDS-T) 46.22 lbs

As referenced from 'M1 Abrams at War' by Michael Green

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum