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panthertank · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 27, 2006 Posts: 23

Howdy all, (first ever post)

I saw this picture up in the paper today and was wondering what kind of vehicle it is. It's from the Brazillian army is all that the picture says. Anyway, thanks for any info!

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

Hi Panthertank...thanks for the post!

Rocinha is one of the largest (and in Rio, the largest) favelas (shantytowns...or "city-within-a-city") in the country. Administration is....complex, and criminal gangs co-exist with police in a peculiar relationship that periodically breaks out in "police invasions" and spectacular gun battles. This pic seems likely to relate to a police action aimed at drug trafficing and they don't go in there lightly armed.

Rocinha is located on a steep incline with a lot of convoluted streets, as you can see.

I don't know what the vehicle is....might it be locally made by Bernardini or somebody?

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

- panthertank

Howdy all, (first ever post)

I saw this picture up in the paper today and was wondering what kind of vehicle it is. It's from the Brazillian army is all that the picture says. Anyway, thanks for any info!

That is an EE-11 Urutu, made by the former Brazilian armored vehicle manufacturer ENGESA...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EE-11_Urutu

I posted several pics of it on this thread:
www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=3227

Neil

mike_Duplessis · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 236

Ooooh, that doesn't sound promising - "former" manufacturer?
I tried looking up Engesa's fate on the net and I must admit my my inability to speak Portugese has rather hampered the effort. I don't know if the line "Setenta destes foram adquiridos pela Empresa NIMDA Co. Ltd de Israel em 2002." means that the company was acquired by an Israeli firm or just some of its products were purchased.
Danged mono-lingual American! Confused

Note how the Cascaval below looks like a slightly enlarged M8 Greyhound in this shot!

Uhu_Fledermaus · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

"Setenta destes foram adquiridos pela Empresa NIMDA Co. Ltd de Israel em 2002."

70 vehicles where acquired by the Israely company NIMDA Co in 2002

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

- mike_Duplessis

Ooooh, that doesn't sound promising - "former" manufacturer?
I tried looking up Engesa's fate on the net and I must admit my my inability to speak Portugese has rather hampered the effort. I don't know if the line "Setenta destes foram adquiridos pela Empresa NIMDA Co. Ltd de Israel em 2002." means that the company was acquired by an Israeli firm or just some of its products were purchased.
Danged mono-lingual American!

Note how the Cascaval below looks like a slightly enlarged M8 Greyhound in this shot!

Looking elsewhere on the same page:
"NIMDA, the Israeli concern, acquired some 100 vehicles, demonstrating the continued viability of this product by modernization and refitting" - or words to that effect. It goes on to note that NIMDA has a history of modernization of older designs that continues the useful service life of the selected vehicles, of which several examples are given, like the Sherman.
Basically ENGESA is presenting this as a vote-of-confidence that the design/manufacture still has some legs. Not an acquisiton of the company itself.
That's a pretty good webpage...with a nice poster of three designs in color, definitely a keeper....

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

It appears they went bankrupt in 1990/1993:

"By the mid-1980s, Engesa had expanded to a group of twelve subsidiaries and employed more than 5,000 people. By that time, the company had spent US$100 million on the development of the OsÃƒÂ³rio, a main battle tank, but was unable to find a buyer for it. The OsÃƒÂ³rio project came to an abrupt end with Operation Desert Storm against Iraq in 1991. In 1990 Engesa had won the evaluation process by the Saudis. After Desert Storm, Brazil was no match for United States competition, given the close ties that developed between Saudi Arabia and the United States during the war with Iraq.

"In early 1990, Brazil's two major manufacturers, Engesa and AvibrÃƒÂ¡s, filed for a concordata [the equivalent of chapter-11 bankruptcy]. By the mid-1990s it appeared to some that Brazil's arms industry had virtually disappeared. Engesa was dismembered, with some of its companies sold to private interests, and the ordnance-related firms taken over by the state and integrated with Imbel (IndÃƒÂºstria de Material BÃƒÂ©lico - Industry of War MateriÃƒÂ©l).

"Engesa Engenheiros Espacializados SA is based in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and manufactures 4x4 and 6x6 military trucks, transmissions and other components."

www.globalsecurity.org...engesa.htm

"The EE-T1 OsÃƒÂ³rio was a very modern tank developed with a unique combination of firepower, mobility and armor protection. It was directly compared with the Abrams M1 (US), Challenger (UK) and others during tests in the Middle East, demonstrating its excellent performance. This tank has not reached production, however, being a victim of the company's financial problems.

"Engesa, based in SÃƒÂ£o JosÃƒÂ© dos Campos, Brazil, went into bankruptcy in 1993."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engesa

Neil

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

Bummer. Proabably goes a long way toward explaining those M60A3's they picked up in a garage sale from the U.S...(instead of making their own, or modifying Leopards as had been done some in the past...)

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

Actually I believe a former ENGESA employee, who I actually met once, was a lurker and occasional poster on the old board - havent seen him around here yet though.

Neil

mike_Duplessis · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 236

I once wrote an short article for AFV News on 90mm low pressure guns and an Engesa executive wrote back to George Bradford (our webmaster) pointing out some of my goofs in regards to the Engesa products. So Engesa was aware of AFV News.

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

- Neil_Baumgardner

Actually I believe a former ENGESA employee, who I actually met once, was a lurker and occasional poster on the old board - havent seen him around here yet though.

Neil

Jose Antonio Valls, by any chance? Don't know if he had Engesa connections, but anyway haven't seen him around for quite a while...I should send him an email to see whus'up....

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

Nope, another guy. I sent him an e-mail to see what he's up to.

Neil

Reginaldo_Bacchi · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 6

After several tries finally with the help of Neil I managed to re register.

I entered into this site before the magic 1 million viewers figure.

Yes, I am the person Neil and Mike have written about. I worked at ENGESA from 1977 until the bitter end.

This question of the NIMDA purchase of those Cascavels is very strange and up to now I coudn't find any more news about it.

Doug Kibbey wrote: "... Bummer. Proabably goes a long way toward explaining those M60A3's they picked up in a garage sale from the U.S...(instead of making their own, or modifying Leopards as had been done some in the past...)"

Doug, your aproach is completely wrong. The M60s were offered by the US Government (I don't know through what agency), and they were refused by the Brazilian Army, who had decided to equip the armoured battalions with Leopard 1s, bought from Belgiun.

However our president Mr. Fernando Henrique Cardoso was doing everything to ingratiate itself with the American government, as he wanted the US backing for his desire of having Brasil as a permanent member of the UN security commitee. Therefore he ordered the Army Minister to accept those tanks, which he grudgingly did.

Any other question on ENGESA, please, submit and I will do everything to present a satisfactory answer.

Reg

Doug_Kibbey · Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

- Reginaldo_Bacchi

Doug Kibbey wrote: "... Bummer. Proabably goes a long way toward explaining those M60A3's they picked up in a garage sale from the U.S...(instead of making their own, or modifying Leopards as had been done some in the past...)"

Doug, your aproach is completely wrong. The M60s were offered by the US Government (I don't know through what agency), and they were refused by the Brazilian Army, who had decided to equip the armoured battalions with Leopard 1s, bought from Belgiun.

However our president Mr. Fernando Henrique Cardoso was doing everything to ingratiate itself with the American government, as he wanted the US backing for his desire of having Brasil as a permanent member of the UN security commitee. Therefore he ordered the Army Minister to accept those tanks, which he grudgingly did.

Reg

Reg,
Chill out, Dude...it was just an expression meaning no offense. And quite apart from that, at least one cavalry regimental commander expressed to me personally that he considered it the best available option bringing with it several capabilities that the armored cavalry would not otherwise have had. This might have annoyed some, but I'd call that a pretty good testimonial from an "end-user" that had no reason whatsoever to feel the need to placate little ol' me.

Regards,
Doug

GeorgJ · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 31, 2006 Posts: 3

Hi All,
Hi Doug! Hi Reginaldo! Doug, Reginaldo meant no offense. Interestingly enough, some of the M-60's Brasil recieved were from the New Jersey National Guard, at Ft. Drum!
Anyway, my understanding of Engesa's demise went something like this: the Saudis contacted Engesa about building an MBT in the 40-ton range (along the lines of the AMX-40). The design was kept light in order to tranverse the deserts in Saudi Arabia, which are mainly sand (as opposed to rock). Engesa went out on a limb and stretched itself financially to pull it off and managed to do so. However, the US got wind of the deal and didn't like the idea of Brasil cutting into its arms business and its "selling to the highest bidder" policy (with no politcal strings attached, unlike U.S. arms deals). When the Engesa team arrived, the found the U.S., English and German M1's, Challengers and Leopards, respectively, waiting for them. The Osorio may have been equally capable as the other vehicles, but came up short on armor. This effectively ended the Osorio's life and was the beginning of the end for Engesa. The Brasilian government tested the Osorio, but ended up not adopting it; why, I don't know (possibly on the grounds of cost). Am I totally off base on this Reginaldo?
Regards,
Georg

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