±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 281
Total: 281
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Community Forums
03: Photo Gallery
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Photo Gallery
07: Photo Gallery
08: Photo Gallery
09: Community Forums
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Photo Gallery
15: Home
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: News Archive
19: Member Screenshots
20: Your Account
21: Home
22: Photo Gallery
23: Member Screenshots
24: Photo Gallery
25: Member Screenshots
26: Home
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Your Account
33: Community Forums
34: Member Screenshots
35: Photo Gallery
36: Downloads
37: Downloads
38: Community Forums
39: Member Screenshots
40: Community Forums
41: Statistics
42: Community Forums
43: Downloads
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Home
47: Photo Gallery
48: Home
49: Photo Gallery
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: News Archive
55: Member Screenshots
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Member Screenshots
59: Photo Gallery
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: News Archive
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Your Account
70: Photo Gallery
71: Downloads
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Member Screenshots
75: Home
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Downloads
85: Home
86: Photo Gallery
87: Member Screenshots
88: Downloads
89: Member Screenshots
90: Downloads
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Photo Gallery
96: Home
97: Community Forums
98: Member Screenshots
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Downloads
103: Photo Gallery
104: News
105: Home
106: Home
107: Member Screenshots
108: Member Screenshots
109: Home
110: Member Screenshots
111: Home
112: Photo Gallery
113: Home
114: Downloads
115: Member Screenshots
116: Home
117: News
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Downloads
123: Home
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Home
131: Photo Gallery
132: Home
133: Home
134: News Archive
135: Member Screenshots
136: Statistics
137: Home
138: Home
139: Member Screenshots
140: Home
141: Downloads
142: Home
143: Community Forums
144: Photo Gallery
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: News Archive
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Community Forums
152: Downloads
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Home
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Photo Gallery
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Photo Gallery
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Downloads
190: Photo Gallery
191: Downloads
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Photo Gallery
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Member Screenshots
199: Community Forums
200: Photo Gallery
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Photo Gallery
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Home
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Photo Gallery
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Home
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Home
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Home
236: Community Forums
237: Home
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: News Archive
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: News Archive
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Downloads
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: News Archive
254: Community Forums
255: Home
256: Community Forums
257: Photo Gallery
258: Community Forums
259: Downloads
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Downloads
264: Downloads
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: Community Forums
273: Member Screenshots
274: Community Forums
275: News Archive
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Home
280: Home
281: Photo Gallery

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
brazillian vehicle
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
panthertank
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 27, 2006
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:08 pm
Post subject: brazillian vehicle

Howdy all, (first ever post)

I saw this picture up in the paper today and was wondering what kind of vehicle it is. It's from the Brazillian army is all that the picture says. Anyway, thanks for any info!
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:24 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

Hi Panthertank...thanks for the post!

Rocinha is one of the largest (and in Rio, the largest) favelas (shantytowns...or "city-within-a-city") in the country. Administration is....complex, and criminal gangs co-exist with police in a peculiar relationship that periodically breaks out in "police invasions" and spectacular gun battles. This pic seems likely to relate to a police action aimed at drug trafficing and they don't go in there lightly armed.

Rocinha is located on a steep incline with a lot of convoluted streets, as you can see.

I don't know what the vehicle is....might it be locally made by Bernardini or somebody?
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

- panthertank
Howdy all, (first ever post)

I saw this picture up in the paper today and was wondering what kind of vehicle it is. It's from the Brazillian army is all that the picture says. Anyway, thanks for any info!


That is an EE-11 Urutu, made by the former Brazilian armored vehicle manufacturer ENGESA...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EE-11_Urutu

I posted several pics of it on this thread:
www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=3227

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:31 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

Ooooh, that doesn't sound promising - "former" manufacturer?
I tried looking up Engesa's fate on the net and I must admit my my inability to speak Portugese has rather hampered the effort. I don't know if the line "Setenta destes foram adquiridos pela Empresa NIMDA Co. Ltd de Israel em 2002." means that the company was acquired by an Israeli firm or just some of its products were purchased.
Danged mono-lingual American! Confused

Note how the Cascaval below looks like a slightly enlarged M8 Greyhound in this shot!

Back to top
View user's profile
Uhu_Fledermaus
Aircraft Demolition Expert

Offline Offline
Joined: Nov 28, 2004
Posts: 4369
Location: Blaricum, The Netherlands ~GMT+1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:50 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

"Setenta destes foram adquiridos pela Empresa NIMDA Co. Ltd de Israel em 2002."


70 vehicles where acquired by the Israely company NIMDA Co in 2002


Last edited by Uhu_Fledermaus on Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile ICQ Number MSN Messenger Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:55 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

- mike_Duplessis
Ooooh, that doesn't sound promising - "former" manufacturer?
I tried looking up Engesa's fate on the net and I must admit my my inability to speak Portugese has rather hampered the effort. I don't know if the line "Setenta destes foram adquiridos pela Empresa NIMDA Co. Ltd de Israel em 2002." means that the company was acquired by an Israeli firm or just some of its products were purchased.
Danged mono-lingual American! Confused

Note how the Cascaval below looks like a slightly enlarged M8 Greyhound in this shot!


Looking elsewhere on the same page:
"NIMDA, the Israeli concern, acquired some 100 vehicles, demonstrating the continued viability of this product by modernization and refitting" - or words to that effect. It goes on to note that NIMDA has a history of modernization of older designs that continues the useful service life of the selected vehicles, of which several examples are given, like the Sherman.
Basically ENGESA is presenting this as a vote-of-confidence that the design/manufacture still has some legs. Not an acquisiton of the company itself.
That's a pretty good webpage...with a nice poster of three designs in color, definitely a keeper....
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:01 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

It appears they went bankrupt in 1990/1993:

"By the mid-1980s, Engesa had expanded to a group of twelve subsidiaries and employed more than 5,000 people. By that time, the company had spent US$100 million on the development of the Osório, a main battle tank, but was unable to find a buyer for it. The Osório project came to an abrupt end with Operation Desert Storm against Iraq in 1991. In 1990 Engesa had won the evaluation process by the Saudis. After Desert Storm, Brazil was no match for United States competition, given the close ties that developed between Saudi Arabia and the United States during the war with Iraq.

"In early 1990, Brazil's two major manufacturers, Engesa and Avibrás, filed for a concordata [the equivalent of chapter-11 bankruptcy]. By the mid-1990s it appeared to some that Brazil's arms industry had virtually disappeared. Engesa was dismembered, with some of its companies sold to private interests, and the ordnance-related firms taken over by the state and integrated with Imbel (Indústria de Material Bélico - Industry of War Materiél).

"Engesa Engenheiros Espacializados SA is based in Sao Paulo, Brazil, and manufactures 4x4 and 6x6 military trucks, transmissions and other components."

www.globalsecurity.org...engesa.htm

"The EE-T1 Osório was a very modern tank developed with a unique combination of firepower, mobility and armor protection. It was directly compared with the Abrams M1 (US), Challenger (UK) and others during tests in the Middle East, demonstrating its excellent performance. This tank has not reached production, however, being a victim of the company's financial problems.

"Engesa, based in São José dos Campos, Brazil, went into bankruptcy in 1993."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engesa

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:16 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

Bummer. Proabably goes a long way toward explaining those M60A3's they picked up in a garage sale from the U.S...(instead of making their own, or modifying Leopards as had been done some in the past...)
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:33 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

Actually I believe a former ENGESA employee, who I actually met once, was a lurker and occasional poster on the old board - havent seen him around here yet though.

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 3:38 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

I once wrote an short article for AFV News on 90mm low pressure guns and an Engesa executive wrote back to George Bradford (our webmaster) pointing out some of my goofs in regards to the Engesa products. So Engesa was aware of AFV News.


Last edited by mike_Duplessis on Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:25 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

- Neil_Baumgardner
Actually I believe a former ENGESA employee, who I actually met once, was a lurker and occasional poster on the old board - havent seen him around here yet though.

Neil


Jose Antonio Valls, by any chance? Don't know if he had Engesa connections, but anyway haven't seen him around for quite a while...I should send him an email to see whus'up....
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 4:38 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

Nope, another guy. I sent him an e-mail to see what he's up to.

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Reginaldo_Bacchi
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 18, 2006
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 9:46 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

After several tries finally with the help of Neil I managed to re register.

I entered into this site before the magic 1 million viewers figure.

Yes, I am the person Neil and Mike have written about. I worked at ENGESA from 1977 until the bitter end.

This question of the NIMDA purchase of those Cascavels is very strange and up to now I coudn't find any more news about it.

Doug Kibbey wrote: "... Bummer. Proabably goes a long way toward explaining those M60A3's they picked up in a garage sale from the U.S...(instead of making their own, or modifying Leopards as had been done some in the past...)"

Doug, your aproach is completely wrong. The M60s were offered by the US Government (I don't know through what agency), and they were refused by the Brazilian Army, who had decided to equip the armoured battalions with Leopard 1s, bought from Belgiun.

However our president Mr. Fernando Henrique Cardoso was doing everything to ingratiate itself with the American government, as he wanted the US backing for his desire of having Brasil as a permanent member of the UN security commitee. Therefore he ordered the Army Minister to accept those tanks, which he grudgingly did.

Any other question on ENGESA, please, submit and I will do everything to present a satisfactory answer.

Reg
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:18 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

- Reginaldo_Bacchi

Doug Kibbey wrote: "... Bummer. Proabably goes a long way toward explaining those M60A3's they picked up in a garage sale from the U.S...(instead of making their own, or modifying Leopards as had been done some in the past...)"

Doug, your aproach is completely wrong. The M60s were offered by the US Government (I don't know through what agency), and they were refused by the Brazilian Army, who had decided to equip the armoured battalions with Leopard 1s, bought from Belgiun.

However our president Mr. Fernando Henrique Cardoso was doing everything to ingratiate itself with the American government, as he wanted the US backing for his desire of having Brasil as a permanent member of the UN security commitee. Therefore he ordered the Army Minister to accept those tanks, which he grudgingly did.

Reg

Reg,
Chill out, Dude...it was just an expression meaning no offense. And quite apart from that, at least one cavalry regimental commander expressed to me personally that he considered it the best available option bringing with it several capabilities that the armored cavalry would not otherwise have had. This might have annoyed some, but I'd call that a pretty good testimonial from an "end-user" that had no reason whatsoever to feel the need to placate little ol' me.

Regards,
Doug
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
GeorgJ
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:19 pm
Post subject: Re: brazillian vehicle

Hi All,
Hi Doug! Hi Reginaldo! Doug, Reginaldo meant no offense. Interestingly enough, some of the M-60's Brasil recieved were from the New Jersey National Guard, at Ft. Drum!
Anyway, my understanding of Engesa's demise went something like this: the Saudis contacted Engesa about building an MBT in the 40-ton range (along the lines of the AMX-40). The design was kept light in order to tranverse the deserts in Saudi Arabia, which are mainly sand (as opposed to rock). Engesa went out on a limb and stretched itself financially to pull it off and managed to do so. However, the US got wind of the deal and didn't like the idea of Brasil cutting into its arms business and its "selling to the highest bidder" policy (with no politcal strings attached, unlike U.S. arms deals). When the Engesa team arrived, the found the U.S., English and German M1's, Challengers and Leopards, respectively, waiting for them. The Osorio may have been equally capable as the other vehicles, but came up short on armor. This effectively ended the Osorio's life and was the beginning of the end for Engesa. The Brasilian government tested the Osorio, but ended up not adopting it; why, I don't know (possibly on the grounds of cost). Am I totally off base on this Reginaldo?
Regards,
Georg
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum