±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 267
Total: 267
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Downloads
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Home
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Member Screenshots
09: Community Forums
10: Home
11: Community Forums
12: Home
13: Community Forums
14: Photo Gallery
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Home
18: Downloads
19: Community Forums
20: Downloads
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Photo Gallery
24: Home
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Member Screenshots
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Photo Gallery
37: Member Screenshots
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Downloads
43: Member Screenshots
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Downloads
47: Home
48: Home
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Photo Gallery
52: Home
53: Your Account
54: Downloads
55: Home
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: Photo Gallery
72: Community Forums
73: Home
74: Community Forums
75: Home
76: Home
77: Home
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: Photo Gallery
89: Community Forums
90: Your Account
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Home
101: Downloads
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Downloads
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Home
112: Photo Gallery
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Downloads
117: Member Screenshots
118: Community Forums
119: Member Screenshots
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Home
127: Community Forums
128: Downloads
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Home
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Downloads
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Home
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Home
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Home
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Home
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Photo Gallery
165: Community Forums
166: Photo Gallery
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Downloads
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Downloads
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Home
176: Member Screenshots
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: Photo Gallery
180: Photo Gallery
181: Member Screenshots
182: Home
183: Photo Gallery
184: Your Account
185: Community Forums
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Your Account
195: Home
196: Statistics
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Home
202: Home
203: Your Account
204: Home
205: News Archive
206: Home
207: Downloads
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Member Screenshots
221: Home
222: Photo Gallery
223: Photo Gallery
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Home
227: Home
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: News
231: Community Forums
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Photo Gallery
253: Photo Gallery
254: Home
255: Photo Gallery
256: Community Forums
257: Your Account
258: Home
259: Community Forums
260: Home
261: Community Forums
262: Home
263: Home
264: Home
265: Your Account
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Thunder Runs into Baghdad.
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:57 am
Post subject: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Folks!

Just finished reading "Thunder Run, the Armored Strike to Capture Baghdad" by David Zucchino. This book covers the actions of the 2nd Spartan Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division and the two Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

The first plan for taking Baghad was to surround it with heavy armored forces. Then the infantry of the 82nd and the 101st AB Divisions would go in clearing the city, block by block. The Thunder Runs were NEVER part of the plan. The Commander of the Spartan Brigade came up with the idea.

During the 1st Thunder Run through town, a number of the tanks had problems with the 7.62mm coax guns jamming. After some talk about the common problem, the crews figured out it was operator error. The trays which catch the spent brass were full and brass was piling up into the guns and jamming them.

Near the end of the first Thunder Run, the lead tank found a road block made up of concrete highway dividers that had been placed acrossed the road. Using the mine plow, they hit the road block at forty kilometers per hour and went flying over it. A second tank with a mine plow hit the road block followed by the rest of the colume. I bet they don't teach obstacle breaching like that at the NTC or Ft. Knox.

During the night before the second Thunder Run, a recon by the Brigade S4 found a four hundred meter mine field had been layed on the highway. The engineers sent in to clear the field found hundreds of Italian made antitank mines lined up on top the blacktop. The mines had been covered with dirt. It took the Engineers about two hours to move 444 AT mines off to the side of the road. Wonder if that is a record?

Charlie Company of the 4th Bn/64th Ar had a Bradley with a mixed crew of Army and Marines. The Marines were part of an ANGLICO team attached to the 3rd ID.

Ammo useage by A Company , 4th/68th Armor
April 8th, fired 24,000 rounds of 7.62mm, 10,000 rounds of 50 cal., and 64 main gun rounds during the battle for one of three intersections.
During two days at the palace, they fired 70,000 rounds of 7.62mm machine gun ammo.

Book/Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

ANGLICO = Air and Naval Gunfire Liaison Company

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:06 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Folks!

There was one event that puzzles me a little. I remembered Dontos' post about firing the main gun with the engine running.

During the first night in town, one of the tank companies picked up a group of men walking down the middle of street. They were heading for the American's positions and carrying PRGs and AK47s. If I understand the story corrrectly, those men didn't know where the Americans were.

The engines were all off to save fuel. The alert was passed along to all the tanks for all crewmen to man their vehicles. The Company Commander gave a count down over the radio to START engines.

At first I though, why not open fire with machine guns and then start the engines? The element of surpise was lost starting the engines.

I am a bit puzzled by this event. Do any of you M1 tankers have any insight as to why they did it that way?
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
mumfordlibrarian
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:10 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

I would suspect that the commander wished to have the ability to maneuver if threatened by AT weapons. There is no guarantee that using MGs would get all the bad guys without some reaching cover and a moving tank can use their main gun to bring down the building on any AT team attempting to take cover in it. Also if able to maneuver the Iraqis could not run with any assurance of escape.

Paul T. Weaver
A totally uninformed opinion
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Roy

The use of 'short-count' start up, prior to engaging the enemy does add the ability of manuever to the battle. A key component to armor combat, to 'Shoot, Manuever, & Communicate'.

The use of 'short-count' also masks the actual number of elements in the unit. When a single vehicle starts up, the noise pinpoints that vehicles location to a near by enemy force. An 'all vehicle' start up at 'stand to' brings all vehicles to 'red-con 1' and masks the actual vehicle locations.

Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Burik
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 05, 2006
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:50 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

David Zucchino's book is outstanding. In my opinion, only one other book rivals it as a great OIF book, and that is The March Up, which is the Marine fight from the crossing of the border til the fall of Baghdad. There is a very good book about Fallujah by one of the same authors as The March Up, and I understand there is supposed to be a movie about it too.

At about the same time Zucchino's book came out I was putting together my book for Concord (the modelers here will know that publisher as a publisher of photo history books). Anyway, my co-author was with 1-64 Armor and he was very good friends with Sgt Booker, who died on the first thunder run. It was amazing with all that heavy fighting that our casualties were so low on both thunder runs.

My co-author (1st Sgt Eric Olson) was not featured in Zucchino's book due to being out on training when Zucchino was at Ft Stewart interviewing soldiers for their stories. I have Sgt Olson's journal and it would have added some good stuff to the book, but in a small way I was able to put some of Sgt Olson's personal experiences in our little book in the introduction. By the way, those of you who know of my book will probably wonder why the lame title. It was only supposed to be a working title. I thought I would get a preview before it went to print, but no, it appears in my mail, and there was nothing I could do about it. Oh well.

I was truly amazed at the US Army's professionalism as I read that book, and I was awestruck when I first saw my co-author's 4,000+ photographs that he had culled together. But what got me the most is the video I was privelaged to view of the thunder runs. It was really something to see the Abrams firing on the move at real targets. I saw an MPAT's effect on an Iraqi bunker at 300 yards. I also saw one of those pickup trucks just riding along side of the tanks and trying to take pot-shots at the tanks. Unbelievable stupidity. The coax lit them up, and I was surprised to see so many sparks coming off the pick-up. It looked almost fake. The video also covered the area where the column had to turn around. Weird to see all those civilian vehicles just passing by, and not one of them was fired at, unless of course they fired first or were clearly enemy like the pick-up noted above. The crews did not screw around at overpasses. Speeds were actually kind of slow (seemed like about 20mph) but when they got to the overpasses, they sped up quite a bit to avoid potential ambushes from sides and above.

There is a very good Discover Channel documentary (Sgt Olson is interviewed in that) called The Fight For Baghdad. It brings the Zucchino book into perspective from a visual point of view. No photos in book by the way. That was the only negative about the book for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
blair
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:10 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

It was one of the best books I have ever read. I just finished the Last Citadel which provides a fascinating look look into the armor battles between the russians and germans.( especially the visceral description of the weight power and impact of the Tiger tank)

In Thunder run wasn't there an incident where an speeding M1 had its turret traversed to the right and the main gun hit a concrete pillar and it spun the turret around like crazy?
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:33 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Blair! Hi Folks!

- blair

In Thunder run wasn't there an incident where an speeding M1 had its turret traversed to the right and the main gun hit a concrete pillar and it spun the turret around like crazy?


That would be Lt. Roger Gruneisen in Charlie One One - Creeping Death.
A lot of the gear from SSG Jason Diaz's Charlie One Two - Cojone Eh? had been piled on top of Charlie One One. Lt. Gruneisen had order SSG Diaz off the blow out panels, were he had been firing one of his M240Cs, and inside. With his hatch in "open-protected" mode, he could not see to the front. The gunner was working targets off to the right side of the hull.
Charlie One One was trying to catch up to the front part of the colume and was moving fast. David Zucchino wrote that the turret spun "fifteen, twenty" times. It was a dam good thing that Lt. Gruneisen had just ordered hatchs closed and for SSG Diaz to get down inside. If not he would have been thrown off when the turret turned into a spinning top.

Lesson to be learned here. DON'T BLOCK THE TC's VIEW!

Book/Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:21 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Paul! Hi Folks!

- mumfordlibrarian
I would suspect that the commander wished to have the ability to maneuver if threatened by AT weapons.


One tank took two RPG hits between the time the engines started cranking and the TC fire off a main gun without aiming it.

- mumfordlibrarian

There is no guarantee that using MGs would get all the bad guys without some reaching cover


I went back and reread that area again. Many of the Iragis made it into pre-positioned bunkers which in time took a platoon of infantry to sweep through and clear the area.

From the book, "Now Wolford was able to function propertly. (my note: A Co. 4th/68th Ar Company Commander, his tank had to be jump started by the XO's tank) He realized the RPG teams had seized control of the fight. He had never seen Iraqis lay down such an effective volume of fire."

As for the point about Armor being able to 'manuever', the only manuevering that was being done was
1. by the XO's tank pulling up next to the CO's tank,
2. one of the tank using hull movement to aline the main gun with targets,
3. another platoon moving to support the platoon at the center of the attack,
4. a platoon of Bradleys with Infantry moving over to provide more fire power.

As for the platoon at the center of the attack, those tanks held their positions on the perimeter. If they had started moving around they might have opened up a hole for the Iraqis to slip through and attack the battalion TOC and LOG Park, along with the Bde TOC and into the rear of the other tank battalion.

I guess my main problem with starting the engines is I was seeing this as a Vietnam era NDP defense. From Dontos post, I guess the current crop of tankers don't train that way.

I guess I am not as confuzed as I was.
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile


Paul T. Weaver
A totally uninformed opinion[/quote]

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum