±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 427
Total: 427
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Statistics
02: Home
03: Home
04: Home
05: Photo Gallery
06: Home
07: Home
08: Member Screenshots
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Your Account
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Photo Gallery
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Photo Gallery
19: Community Forums
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Member Screenshots
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Home
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Downloads
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Home
42: Photo Gallery
43: Community Forums
44: Home
45: Photo Gallery
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Photo Gallery
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Downloads
55: Home
56: Photo Gallery
57: Downloads
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Photo Gallery
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Member Screenshots
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Community Forums
70: Home
71: Downloads
72: Community Forums
73: Search
74: Community Forums
75: Search
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Photo Gallery
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Photo Gallery
82: News Archive
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Home
86: News
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: News Archive
93: Photo Gallery
94: News Archive
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Member Screenshots
98: Community Forums
99: Member Screenshots
100: News Archive
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Home
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Home
109: Downloads
110: Community Forums
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Photo Gallery
114: Home
115: Photo Gallery
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Community Forums
119: Downloads
120: Photo Gallery
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Photo Gallery
127: Home
128: Community Forums
129: Home
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Photo Gallery
136: Home
137: Home
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Photo Gallery
141: Photo Gallery
142: Downloads
143: Home
144: Home
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Home
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Home
152: Member Screenshots
153: Photo Gallery
154: Community Forums
155: Home
156: Home
157: Downloads
158: Home
159: Community Forums
160: Statistics
161: Community Forums
162: Photo Gallery
163: Community Forums
164: News
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Home
169: Home
170: Home
171: Home
172: Home
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Home
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Home
179: Home
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Home
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Home
187: Your Account
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Photo Gallery
191: Community Forums
192: Home
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Home
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Photo Gallery
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Home
202: Home
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Home
207: Member Screenshots
208: Photo Gallery
209: Home
210: News Archive
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Home
215: Photo Gallery
216: Member Screenshots
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Home
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Home
227: Member Screenshots
228: Downloads
229: Contact
230: Community Forums
231: Home
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Member Screenshots
236: Photo Gallery
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Home
242: Downloads
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Member Screenshots
250: Home
251: Community Forums
252: Member Screenshots
253: Home
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: Community Forums
259: Photo Gallery
260: Member Screenshots
261: Home
262: Home
263: Photo Gallery
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Home
275: Member Screenshots
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Photo Gallery
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Home
283: News Archive
284: Home
285: Member Screenshots
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Community Forums
289: Member Screenshots
290: Home
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Your Account
296: Community Forums
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: News Archive
301: Home
302: Photo Gallery
303: Community Forums
304: Home
305: Home
306: Downloads
307: Community Forums
308: Member Screenshots
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Home
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Photo Gallery
315: Home
316: Home
317: Community Forums
318: Home
319: Community Forums
320: Photo Gallery
321: Community Forums
322: Home
323: News Archive
324: News Archive
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: News Archive
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: News Archive
339: Downloads
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Community Forums
344: Home
345: News Archive
346: Community Forums
347: Home
348: Home
349: Community Forums
350: Member Screenshots
351: Community Forums
352: Home
353: Photo Gallery
354: Home
355: Home
356: Community Forums
357: News Archive
358: Downloads
359: Photo Gallery
360: Photo Gallery
361: Photo Gallery
362: Member Screenshots
363: Community Forums
364: Home
365: Home
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Home
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Community Forums
376: Home
377: Home
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Downloads
381: Community Forums
382: Home
383: Home
384: Home
385: Home
386: Member Screenshots
387: Downloads
388: Community Forums
389: Home
390: Community Forums
391: Member Screenshots
392: Home
393: Your Account
394: Member Screenshots
395: Photo Gallery
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Community Forums
402: Home
403: Community Forums
404: Photo Gallery
405: Community Forums
406: Home
407: Statistics
408: News Archive
409: Home
410: Member Screenshots
411: Community Forums
412: Photo Gallery
413: Home
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Downloads
419: Member Screenshots
420: Photo Gallery
421: Downloads
422: Community Forums
423: Home
424: Home
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Thunder Runs into Baghdad.
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:57 am
Post subject: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Folks!

Just finished reading "Thunder Run, the Armored Strike to Capture Baghdad" by David Zucchino. This book covers the actions of the 2nd Spartan Brigade of the 3rd Infantry Division and the two Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

The first plan for taking Baghad was to surround it with heavy armored forces. Then the infantry of the 82nd and the 101st AB Divisions would go in clearing the city, block by block. The Thunder Runs were NEVER part of the plan. The Commander of the Spartan Brigade came up with the idea.

During the 1st Thunder Run through town, a number of the tanks had problems with the 7.62mm coax guns jamming. After some talk about the common problem, the crews figured out it was operator error. The trays which catch the spent brass were full and brass was piling up into the guns and jamming them.

Near the end of the first Thunder Run, the lead tank found a road block made up of concrete highway dividers that had been placed acrossed the road. Using the mine plow, they hit the road block at forty kilometers per hour and went flying over it. A second tank with a mine plow hit the road block followed by the rest of the colume. I bet they don't teach obstacle breaching like that at the NTC or Ft. Knox.

During the night before the second Thunder Run, a recon by the Brigade S4 found a four hundred meter mine field had been layed on the highway. The engineers sent in to clear the field found hundreds of Italian made antitank mines lined up on top the blacktop. The mines had been covered with dirt. It took the Engineers about two hours to move 444 AT mines off to the side of the road. Wonder if that is a record?

Charlie Company of the 4th Bn/64th Ar had a Bradley with a mixed crew of Army and Marines. The Marines were part of an ANGLICO team attached to the 3rd ID.

Ammo useage by A Company , 4th/68th Armor
April 8th, fired 24,000 rounds of 7.62mm, 10,000 rounds of 50 cal., and 64 main gun rounds during the battle for one of three intersections.
During two days at the palace, they fired 70,000 rounds of 7.62mm machine gun ammo.

Book/Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

ANGLICO = Air and Naval Gunfire Liaison Company

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:06 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Folks!

There was one event that puzzles me a little. I remembered Dontos' post about firing the main gun with the engine running.

During the first night in town, one of the tank companies picked up a group of men walking down the middle of street. They were heading for the American's positions and carrying PRGs and AK47s. If I understand the story corrrectly, those men didn't know where the Americans were.

The engines were all off to save fuel. The alert was passed along to all the tanks for all crewmen to man their vehicles. The Company Commander gave a count down over the radio to START engines.

At first I though, why not open fire with machine guns and then start the engines? The element of surpise was lost starting the engines.

I am a bit puzzled by this event. Do any of you M1 tankers have any insight as to why they did it that way?
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
mumfordlibrarian
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:10 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

I would suspect that the commander wished to have the ability to maneuver if threatened by AT weapons. There is no guarantee that using MGs would get all the bad guys without some reaching cover and a moving tank can use their main gun to bring down the building on any AT team attempting to take cover in it. Also if able to maneuver the Iraqis could not run with any assurance of escape.

Paul T. Weaver
A totally uninformed opinion
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:24 pm
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Roy

The use of 'short-count' start up, prior to engaging the enemy does add the ability of manuever to the battle. A key component to armor combat, to 'Shoot, Manuever, & Communicate'.

The use of 'short-count' also masks the actual number of elements in the unit. When a single vehicle starts up, the noise pinpoints that vehicles location to a near by enemy force. An 'all vehicle' start up at 'stand to' brings all vehicles to 'red-con 1' and masks the actual vehicle locations.

Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Burik
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 05, 2006
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:50 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

David Zucchino's book is outstanding. In my opinion, only one other book rivals it as a great OIF book, and that is The March Up, which is the Marine fight from the crossing of the border til the fall of Baghdad. There is a very good book about Fallujah by one of the same authors as The March Up, and I understand there is supposed to be a movie about it too.

At about the same time Zucchino's book came out I was putting together my book for Concord (the modelers here will know that publisher as a publisher of photo history books). Anyway, my co-author was with 1-64 Armor and he was very good friends with Sgt Booker, who died on the first thunder run. It was amazing with all that heavy fighting that our casualties were so low on both thunder runs.

My co-author (1st Sgt Eric Olson) was not featured in Zucchino's book due to being out on training when Zucchino was at Ft Stewart interviewing soldiers for their stories. I have Sgt Olson's journal and it would have added some good stuff to the book, but in a small way I was able to put some of Sgt Olson's personal experiences in our little book in the introduction. By the way, those of you who know of my book will probably wonder why the lame title. It was only supposed to be a working title. I thought I would get a preview before it went to print, but no, it appears in my mail, and there was nothing I could do about it. Oh well.

I was truly amazed at the US Army's professionalism as I read that book, and I was awestruck when I first saw my co-author's 4,000+ photographs that he had culled together. But what got me the most is the video I was privelaged to view of the thunder runs. It was really something to see the Abrams firing on the move at real targets. I saw an MPAT's effect on an Iraqi bunker at 300 yards. I also saw one of those pickup trucks just riding along side of the tanks and trying to take pot-shots at the tanks. Unbelievable stupidity. The coax lit them up, and I was surprised to see so many sparks coming off the pick-up. It looked almost fake. The video also covered the area where the column had to turn around. Weird to see all those civilian vehicles just passing by, and not one of them was fired at, unless of course they fired first or were clearly enemy like the pick-up noted above. The crews did not screw around at overpasses. Speeds were actually kind of slow (seemed like about 20mph) but when they got to the overpasses, they sped up quite a bit to avoid potential ambushes from sides and above.

There is a very good Discover Channel documentary (Sgt Olson is interviewed in that) called The Fight For Baghdad. It brings the Zucchino book into perspective from a visual point of view. No photos in book by the way. That was the only negative about the book for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
blair
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:10 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

It was one of the best books I have ever read. I just finished the Last Citadel which provides a fascinating look look into the armor battles between the russians and germans.( especially the visceral description of the weight power and impact of the Tiger tank)

In Thunder run wasn't there an incident where an speeding M1 had its turret traversed to the right and the main gun hit a concrete pillar and it spun the turret around like crazy?
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:33 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Blair! Hi Folks!

- blair

In Thunder run wasn't there an incident where an speeding M1 had its turret traversed to the right and the main gun hit a concrete pillar and it spun the turret around like crazy?


That would be Lt. Roger Gruneisen in Charlie One One - Creeping Death.
A lot of the gear from SSG Jason Diaz's Charlie One Two - Cojone Eh? had been piled on top of Charlie One One. Lt. Gruneisen had order SSG Diaz off the blow out panels, were he had been firing one of his M240Cs, and inside. With his hatch in "open-protected" mode, he could not see to the front. The gunner was working targets off to the right side of the hull.
Charlie One One was trying to catch up to the front part of the colume and was moving fast. David Zucchino wrote that the turret spun "fifteen, twenty" times. It was a dam good thing that Lt. Gruneisen had just ordered hatchs closed and for SSG Diaz to get down inside. If not he would have been thrown off when the turret turned into a spinning top.

Lesson to be learned here. DON'T BLOCK THE TC's VIEW!

Book/Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:21 am
Post subject: Re: Thunder Runs into Baghdad.

Hi Paul! Hi Folks!

- mumfordlibrarian
I would suspect that the commander wished to have the ability to maneuver if threatened by AT weapons.


One tank took two RPG hits between the time the engines started cranking and the TC fire off a main gun without aiming it.

- mumfordlibrarian

There is no guarantee that using MGs would get all the bad guys without some reaching cover


I went back and reread that area again. Many of the Iragis made it into pre-positioned bunkers which in time took a platoon of infantry to sweep through and clear the area.

From the book, "Now Wolford was able to function propertly. (my note: A Co. 4th/68th Ar Company Commander, his tank had to be jump started by the XO's tank) He realized the RPG teams had seized control of the fight. He had never seen Iraqis lay down such an effective volume of fire."

As for the point about Armor being able to 'manuever', the only manuevering that was being done was
1. by the XO's tank pulling up next to the CO's tank,
2. one of the tank using hull movement to aline the main gun with targets,
3. another platoon moving to support the platoon at the center of the attack,
4. a platoon of Bradleys with Infantry moving over to provide more fire power.

As for the platoon at the center of the attack, those tanks held their positions on the perimeter. If they had started moving around they might have opened up a hole for the Iraqis to slip through and attack the battalion TOC and LOG Park, along with the Bde TOC and into the rear of the other tank battalion.

I guess my main problem with starting the engines is I was seeing this as a Vietnam era NDP defense. From Dontos post, I guess the current crop of tankers don't train that way.

I guess I am not as confuzed as I was.
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile


Paul T. Weaver
A totally uninformed opinion[/quote]

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum