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last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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jtrowbridge5
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:17 pm
Post subject: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

bovingtons only surviving dd sherman

dennis

community.webshots.com...ity=zXvjYc
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Sabot
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:27 pm
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

How in the world could they tell where they were going?

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:37 pm
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

- Sabot
How in the world could they tell where they were going?


I think the TC was elevated and talked the driver through it...act of faith, for sure. Like a Sheridan with the swim barrier up, but no window in the surfboard (which wasn't all that great a view, lemme' tell ya'...)
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geoffsteer
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:57 pm
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

Hi Dennis-
There are two other Duplex drive Shermans in existence, one is somewhere in England and was salvaged off a section of beach that saw alot of amphibious training exercises during WW-II. This particular Sherman's salvaging was the subject of a book published around twenty years ago, written by a pub owner who received a thank you letter from, then president, Ronald Reagan. The other Duplex drive Sherman is sitting off a beach in Italy. I think this one has been salvaged and is now sitting on dry land but I am not to sure about this. So, maby we cannot count this one as being among the living. This is not intended as a correction to your post, just letting you know that, happily, the Bovington Duplex drive Sherman is not without siblings!
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Geoff Steer [;-{/) Smile
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:13 pm
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

There is also a DD at Aberdeen. It is a later 'test' vehicle. I think it has a 76mm gun and possibly HVSS.

Neil do you have a picture?

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jtrowbridge5
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:30 pm
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

sorry, don't want to disagree with anyone on this, only going by what the museum told me[ and the sign on the front].maybe its the only one in original condition IE-canvas surround
dennis
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:58 pm
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

Hi Sabot! Hi Folks!

- Sabot

How in the world could they tell where they were going?


There was a small platform added to the top of the turret just behind the TC's hatch. In Dennis' link, check photo number XX3 where you can see the number 50 on the turret. Look to the rear and you can see the brace that supports the back edge along with a pair of boots of a trooper standing on it. There was a fixed post for him to hold on to with one hand. With the other hand his control a tiller that was mounted on the engine deck with linkage that ran to the rear of the hull and down to the props. There was also a connection that went through the rear upper hull plate and worked it's way up the the driver's position.

The TC would control the tiller until time for him to get under armor, then the driver would take control. Some time ago there was a link off the Mr. Bradford's main page to a site titled "AFV Interiors" by Mike Kendall. He had a great write up and lots of photos of the Duplex Drive system.

Mike, did you make the tranfer? This would be a good point to post that drawing you had of the linkage, if that is OK.

Remaining DD tank count.
1. US Army DD lost during a VIP demonstration at Slapton Sands in England, now a Memorial on the beach there.
2. A Canadian DD, named BOLD, from the 6th Armoured Regiment (1st Hussars) lost off Juno, recovered 27 years later, now a Canadian Memorial at Courseulles-sur-Mer in France.
3. A 741st DD at the Musuem of Underwater Wreaks in France.
4. The restored one at Bovington.
5. A 753rd Tk Bn vehicle lost during training off Salerno, now restored with a working screen system at the Piana delle Orme Museum in Italy. The Patton Museum tried to get this one, but the US Navy salavge ship broke some cables and ran out of time. About year later, the Italian divers who had found it were able to get another salavge ship to recover it. While no crewmen were lost when this one sank, one of the Italain divers died during the second salavge effort. I would call that an example of AFVs can still hurt and kill you no matter how old their are.
6. This one doesn't really count because it maybe a post WWII test vehicle. APG has a M4A3(or maybe an ex-British A2)E8 76mm DD. It still has the frame, but the screen is long gone. This one had been on the 'Mile of Tanks', now in a motor pool with other vehicles, showed up in a History Channel Show with Dr. Attwater standing next to the rear while explaining the frame works and pointing out a remaining small piece of the screen.
7. & 8. Still in the water off Omaha, seen on TLC's 'Underwater Detectives' program last year sometime.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:26 pm
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

- bsmart
There is also a DD at Aberdeen. It is a later 'test' vehicle. I think it has a 76mm gun and possibly HVSS.

Neil do you have a picture?


Yes, but not from great angles of course:





Neil
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Jinx
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:48 pm
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

How much water were these expected to cross? (I am assuming the sea state had to be pretty much "swimming pool calm".....?)

And was the full crew in place when it was in the water?

(And no, i am not going to ask the next question.....because i am too afraid of the answer.)
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:30 pm
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

- Jinx
How much water were these expected to cross? (I am assuming the sea state had to be pretty much "swimming pool calm".....?)

And was the full crew in place when it was in the water?

(And no, i am not going to ask the next question.....because i am too afraid of the answer.)


They were expected to cross 6000 yards, with full crew. Of 29 launched, only 2 made it to shore on their own. Another 35 were brought directly to shore by their LCTs, against orders. Some of the 27 are still on the bottom of the Normandy coast, although I understand all bodies were retrieved.

Here's some links:
www.sproe.com/t/tank-dd.html
www.bbc.co.uk/news/hi/...016280.stm
www.moaa.org/magazine/...eptune.asp

Neil
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Jinx
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:07 am
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

Thank you kindly for the info. According to the last link many of the crew members of the foundered tanks were able to escape, and were rescued. I feel better knowing that.
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:08 am
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

Hi Jinx! Hi Folks!

- Jinx
How much water were these expected to cross? (I am assuming the sea state had to be pretty much "swimming pool calm".....?)

And was the full crew in place when it was in the water?

(And no, i am not going to ask the next question.....because i am too afraid of the answer.)


The sad thing is that during all the training that all the Allied DD crews had, very few tanks did sink. The biggest problem was the weather on D-Day. If was far worst that the planners had planned for.

It was just the 741st Tank Bn that had the worst luck. The US 70th over at Utah did put most of their DDs into the water and very few sank. The British and Canadian DD units launched some and landed some on their beachs. While they did have some that sank, it was no where near the level of lost the 741st had.

There is also a question about who's fault it was for following the plan and launching the 741st at 6,000 yards. Some books blame the Navy for sticking to the plan. One book claims the two tank company commanders demanded the Navy follow the plan and launch the tanks. The only good thing is that both the Navy and the Army folks with the 743rd saw what happiend to the 741st and didn't follow it.

Many reports make a big deal out of the lost of those 27 DDs, but in turn fail to give credit to the number of Shermans that did reach Omaha during the morining.

My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:16 am
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

- Neil_Baumgardner

They were expected to cross 6000 yards, with full crew.
Neil


IMO, it would have been asking a lot to expect them to cross 6,000 feet.
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Chris_C
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:13 am
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

There was a show on Discovery or something a while back about the DD tanks. It concluded that the trouble wasn't necessarily the distance; the current turned the tanks, and the waves impacting at an angle overwhelmed the support brackets, causing them to sink. I dunno how accurate their conclusions are, but it's an interesting take on the issue.
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David_Clark
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:57 am
Post subject: Re: last surviving duplex drive sherman in the world

Great photos.

While there are several recovered hulks, the Bovington Sherman DD is the only intact example.

As Roy has pointed out, while 27 of the 29 741st Tank Bn DDs foundered, most of the British and Canadian DDs made it to shore and, together with the Crabs and AVREs landed on shore by LCTs, provided much needed armoured support on the landing beaches.

I have a book at home by a British Sherman DD tank commander (the name escapes me) and it's a fascinating account of training and the D-Day landings.

It seems that the danger of piloting a 30 ton tank supported in rough seas by a canvas and rubber shroud wasn't really an issue and you have to admire those who attempted it.

David
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