±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 484
Total: 484
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Downloads
04: Community Forums
05: Photo Gallery
06: Member Screenshots
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Member Screenshots
10: Your Account
11: Home
12: Community Forums
13: Downloads
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Member Screenshots
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Home
22: Home
23: Home
24: Home
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Home
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Downloads
37: Community Forums
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Downloads
41: Member Screenshots
42: Home
43: Home
44: Photo Gallery
45: Home
46: Home
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Home
51: Home
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Home
56: Downloads
57: Downloads
58: Home
59: Your Account
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Home
63: Community Forums
64: Downloads
65: Home
66: Home
67: Home
68: Home
69: Photo Gallery
70: Home
71: Home
72: Member Screenshots
73: Photo Gallery
74: Home
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Home
78: Community Forums
79: Member Screenshots
80: Home
81: Community Forums
82: Member Screenshots
83: Home
84: Photo Gallery
85: Home
86: Home
87: Photo Gallery
88: Downloads
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Your Account
93: Community Forums
94: Your Account
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Home
98: Photo Gallery
99: Home
100: Downloads
101: Home
102: Home
103: Downloads
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: Community Forums
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Home
110: News Archive
111: Home
112: News Archive
113: Home
114: Home
115: Home
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Home
119: Home
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Downloads
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Photo Gallery
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Downloads
132: Home
133: Home
134: Your Account
135: Home
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Home
139: Downloads
140: Home
141: Member Screenshots
142: Photo Gallery
143: Community Forums
144: Downloads
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Member Screenshots
152: News
153: Home
154: Community Forums
155: Downloads
156: Community Forums
157: Home
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Downloads
161: Downloads
162: Statistics
163: Photo Gallery
164: Community Forums
165: Photo Gallery
166: Home
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Member Screenshots
173: Home
174: Photo Gallery
175: Home
176: Home
177: Community Forums
178: Home
179: Home
180: Home
181: Downloads
182: Community Forums
183: Member Screenshots
184: Community Forums
185: Member Screenshots
186: Community Forums
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Photo Gallery
190: Home
191: Member Screenshots
192: Supporters
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Downloads
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Home
201: Community Forums
202: Home
203: Community Forums
204: News
205: Photo Gallery
206: Community Forums
207: Home
208: News Archive
209: Community Forums
210: Member Screenshots
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Downloads
214: Downloads
215: Home
216: Photo Gallery
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Home
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Home
225: Photo Gallery
226: Treasury
227: Home
228: Community Forums
229: Member Screenshots
230: Home
231: Downloads
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: Photo Gallery
235: Home
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Home
239: Home
240: Home
241: Photo Gallery
242: Photo Gallery
243: Home
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Statistics
248: Member Screenshots
249: Home
250: Home
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Home
255: Home
256: Community Forums
257: Home
258: Community Forums
259: Home
260: Photo Gallery
261: Home
262: Downloads
263: Home
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Home
269: Member Screenshots
270: Photo Gallery
271: Member Screenshots
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Home
276: Home
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Home
285: Downloads
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: News
289: Member Screenshots
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Downloads
293: Home
294: Home
295: Home
296: Community Forums
297: Photo Gallery
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Member Screenshots
301: Member Screenshots
302: Community Forums
303: Downloads
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Member Screenshots
307: Photo Gallery
308: Downloads
309: Your Account
310: Home
311: Home
312: Home
313: Community Forums
314: Home
315: Home
316: Photo Gallery
317: Home
318: Downloads
319: Member Screenshots
320: Home
321: Home
322: Downloads
323: Community Forums
324: Home
325: Photo Gallery
326: Photo Gallery
327: Member Screenshots
328: Community Forums
329: Member Screenshots
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Statistics
333: Downloads
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Statistics
337: Community Forums
338: Downloads
339: Downloads
340: Community Forums
341: Home
342: Member Screenshots
343: Community Forums
344: Home
345: Community Forums
346: Home
347: Photo Gallery
348: Home
349: Downloads
350: Statistics
351: Home
352: Community Forums
353: Treasury
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Home
357: Photo Gallery
358: Downloads
359: Home
360: Community Forums
361: Member Screenshots
362: Downloads
363: Home
364: Photo Gallery
365: Home
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: Member Screenshots
369: Community Forums
370: Home
371: Downloads
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Downloads
376: Photo Gallery
377: Member Screenshots
378: Home
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Member Screenshots
383: Home
384: Downloads
385: Community Forums
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Photo Gallery
391: Member Screenshots
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Home
395: Home
396: Community Forums
397: Home
398: Photo Gallery
399: Community Forums
400: Member Screenshots
401: Home
402: Home
403: Home
404: Home
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Treasury
408: Community Forums
409: Member Screenshots
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Photo Gallery
413: Community Forums
414: News
415: Home
416: Member Screenshots
417: Photo Gallery
418: Community Forums
419: Home
420: News Archive
421: Home
422: Community Forums
423: Member Screenshots
424: Member Screenshots
425: Your Account
426: Home
427: Community Forums
428: Community Forums
429: Home
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Photo Gallery
433: Downloads
434: Home
435: News Archive
436: Community Forums
437: Home
438: Downloads
439: Home
440: Member Screenshots
441: Photo Gallery
442: Home
443: Downloads
444: Photo Gallery
445: Member Screenshots
446: Community Forums
447: Photo Gallery
448: Downloads
449: Home
450: Photo Gallery
451: Home
452: Home
453: Home
454: Home
455: Home
456: Home
457: Home
458: Home
459: Community Forums
460: Home
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Home
464: News Archive
465: Community Forums
466: Home
467: Home
468: Home
469: Photo Gallery
470: Home
471: Home
472: Community Forums
473: Home
474: Home
475: Your Account
476: Community Forums
477: Member Screenshots
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Home
481: Home
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Interesting photo of a Sherman Firefly
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:33 am
Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of a Sherman Firefly

- Dontos
Claus

An important note to that would be the wearing of vehicle protective helmets with 'ear phones'. There is a remarkable amount of hearing protection afforded to the crew by wearing the helmets.

It is still a 'deafening' profession. (The proof being my own hearing loss and constant 'ringing' in my ears after 21 years in and around tanks!)


Good point about the headgear. I now the "ringing feeling" from diring long trips on motorcycle, but luckily, that disappears after a day or so of rest. Smile

Claus B
Back to top
View user's profile
J.McGillivray
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of a Sherman Firefly

In the book “Tank Tactics from Normandy to Lorraine� by Roman Jarymowycz there is a Canadian Analysis of Sherman Casualties for the period 6 June to 10 July in Appendix G. The final part of the study is entitled:

“Further Study of Tank Hit but not Penetrated and Remained in Action.�
Total Tanks inspected 124
Hits failing to Penetrate 83
Back to top
View user's profile
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of a Sherman Firefly

very interesting...
i will try to get my hands on that book. i have many an inquiry... like of the tanks inspected, how many had follow up shots that did penetrate? what vehicles exactly where inspected and under what circumstances did they receive hits? etc.......
can i ask what else the study details?
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of a Sherman Firefly

Along similar lines, does this book go into platoon-level tactics, formations, etc?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
J.McGillivray
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:26 am
Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of a Sherman Firefly

Hello Shawn, Neil,

The problem with most published studies like this is the lack of detail, and of context.

First the timing of the study would have being just after the fall of Caen and at about the time of the transfer of the 3rd Canadian Infantry Division and the 2nd Armoured Brigade from the British 1st Corps to the 2nd Canadian Corps.

Most of the study deals with a detailed analysis of 45 Sherman casualties. The study doses not give the details as to where these tanks are located, or the details of how they became casualties. However, I suspect that these 45 tanks are most likely 2CAB Shermans located in the tank graveyard at Bray, and that they are “total losses�.

The last part of the study contains the information I posted in my previous post. Those 124 Shermans are most likely the ones which were in service with 2CAB at the time of inspection, on the 10th of July or soon afterwards.

So in total the study covers 169 tanks. There are a total of 148 hits reported with 62 penetrations and 86 hits which failed to penetrate.

What is missing from the study are those tanks which were KOed, but were recovered and under going repair.

As per the book in General, it seems to deal more with Armoured doctrine then with detailed unit tactics. It is of the vain that everything German and Russian is good, while everything allied is bad, with things Canadian being the very worst. There is a lot of interesting information presented in the book, but I strongly disagree with the authors analysis and conclusions.

www.rienner.com/viewbo...71&catid=6
Back to top
View user's profile
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:06 pm
Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of a Sherman Firefly

i am interesting in reading it. i think i will order it.
thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
J.McGillivray
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 149

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 10:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Interesting photo of a Sherman Firefly

My largest complained with Jarymowycz’s book concerns his treatment of the Goodwood, Cobra and Spring Operations. He, along with many others, treats these Operations as being separate and totally independent of each other. He also ignores the impact of the bad weather on their planning and conduct.

First you must remember that during the months of June and July, Montgomery was the commander of all allied ground forces in Normandy. He was not just the British commander, but he also commanded the Americans and Canadian troops. He commanded the 21st Army Group which consisted of Bradley’s 1st US Army and Dempsey’s 2nd British Army.

Montgomery’s Big July offensive consisted of three Operations; Goodwood and Atlantic, followed two days later by Cobra. This was similar to what Montgomery had done at El Alamein. His intent was to launch an attack at one end of his front to draw in the German reserves, and then launch a second attack at the other side of the front. The second attack was to be Cobra and was the main effort. Although few Americans will acknowledge this, Montgomery was just as responsible for Cobra as he was for Goodwood. The overall concept was Montgomery’s, with the detailed planning being done at the Army and Corps level. The real architect of Goodwood was the British VIII Corps commander O’Conner, and not Montgomery. It was O’Conner who wanted to use an armoured corps, and with Dempsey’s help, he sold the idea to Montgomery. The planned start of Goodwood and Cobra was to be the 17th and 19th of July. But because of the problems the Americans had in capturing St. Lo and in securing their start line, both operations were pushed back to the 18th and the 20th.

Goodwood started off well on the 18th and made deep penetrations into the German defences. Although the British suffered high tank losses, their causalities in personnel were relatively light by Normandy standards. Most of the British tanks that were lost were later recovered and returned to service. The Canadian Corps, in spite of heavy fighting, had achieved all of their Atlantic objectives; but was ordered to push beyond them to help secure the Goodwood objectives.

On the 20th the weather turned against the Allies. Cobra was postponed due to bad weather. The Air force would not bomb without good weather, and Bradley would not start Cobra without the bombers. The British and Canadians were encountering stiffening resistance and increasing numbers of counterattacks. Added to this were thunder storms and the non-start of Cobra. With all of this Dempsey (not Montgomery) ordered the end of Goodwood.

Bradley was hoping he could launch Cobra on the 21st, and thus was furious with Montgomery for stopping Goodwood on the 20th. But because of continuing bad weather reports, Cobra was pushed back to the 24th. Also on the 21st Montgomery gave instructions to Guy Simonds to plan for operation Spring to start on the 25th, the day after the new start date of Cobra.

Simonds has claimed all along that Spring was planned as a holding attack. It was to start just after Cobra and was intended to delay the movement of German troops against Cobra. If the Germans did shift their forces on mass to counter Cobra, or started a general withdraw towards the Seine River, then Simonds had two British Armoured Divisions available to exploit the situation.

On the 24th the allied air forces took off to carryout the bombardment to open Cobra. However, because of thick ground mists, the air forces cancelled the attack and ordered the bombers back to base. Some bombers did not receive the recall order and dropped their bombs. The allied commanders were worried that this false start of Cobra had tipped off the Germans as to their intentions. Also they did not know when Cobra would start, because it was depended on the weather.

The role of Spring was now to keep the German attention focused on the area south of Caen, and away from the American sector.

While the Americans were sitting on their duffs between the 20th and the 25th, waiting for the weather to clear, the Canadians were engaged in heavy fighting. The Germans had continued their counter attacks. Also, the Germans rushed additional troops and armour to the area south of Caen. Because of the bad weather there was little aerial reconnaissance conducted over the German positions while Spring was being planned.

Spring started at 2am on the 25th of July. The Canadians were attacking a numerically superior German force occupying strong defensive positions, with excellent fields of fire, and possessing a technical edge in equipment. Also, unknown to the Canadians, the area for centuries, had being a mining district. It was a rabbit warren of underground mine tunnels and shafts. The Canadian troops would clear an area, only to have the Germans reappear behind them, literally out of the ground. Also Spring was not well supported by the air force. Cobra started on the 25th. Most of the allied air power was used to support Cobra, and Spring got the leftovers.

That’s enough for now.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum