±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 539
Total: 539
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Community Forums
03: Home
04: Home
05: Photo Gallery
06: Downloads
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Home
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Photo Gallery
15: Community Forums
16: Photo Gallery
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Home
21: Home
22: Photo Gallery
23: Community Forums
24: Home
25: Community Forums
26: News Archive
27: Home
28: Statistics
29: News
30: Photo Gallery
31: Photo Gallery
32: Home
33: News
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Home
37: Photo Gallery
38: Home
39: Home
40: Photo Gallery
41: Downloads
42: Downloads
43: Home
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Member Screenshots
50: Community Forums
51: Member Screenshots
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Community Forums
55: Downloads
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Home
59: Your Account
60: Member Screenshots
61: Statistics
62: Home
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Downloads
66: Home
67: Home
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Home
71: Home
72: News Archive
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Home
76: Photo Gallery
77: Your Account
78: Photo Gallery
79: Home
80: Home
81: Member Screenshots
82: Home
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Home
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Home
89: Community Forums
90: Home
91: Home
92: Home
93: Community Forums
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Home
98: Home
99: Member Screenshots
100: Home
101: Home
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: Home
105: Home
106: Home
107: Community Forums
108: Downloads
109: Home
110: Home
111: Community Forums
112: Home
113: Home
114: Home
115: Home
116: Downloads
117: News
118: Home
119: Community Forums
120: Photo Gallery
121: Home
122: Home
123: Home
124: Downloads
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Home
128: Home
129: Home
130: Home
131: Home
132: Home
133: Home
134: Home
135: Home
136: Home
137: Community Forums
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Your Account
141: Member Screenshots
142: Downloads
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: Home
150: Home
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Community Forums
158: Home
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Member Screenshots
162: Member Screenshots
163: Home
164: Home
165: Home
166: Member Screenshots
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Home
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Home
177: Downloads
178: Community Forums
179: Member Screenshots
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Home
185: Downloads
186: Community Forums
187: Home
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Home
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Home
195: Home
196: Home
197: Photo Gallery
198: Home
199: Community Forums
200: Home
201: Home
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: News Archive
205: Your Account
206: Home
207: Home
208: Home
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Photo Gallery
215: Statistics
216: Statistics
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Home
221: Downloads
222: Downloads
223: Photo Gallery
224: Downloads
225: Home
226: Home
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Downloads
230: Home
231: Photo Gallery
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Member Screenshots
237: Community Forums
238: Home
239: News Archive
240: Home
241: Home
242: Home
243: Home
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Home
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Photo Gallery
251: Photo Gallery
252: Home
253: Home
254: Home
255: Home
256: Home
257: Home
258: Member Screenshots
259: Home
260: Home
261: Home
262: Home
263: Home
264: Home
265: Downloads
266: Home
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Member Screenshots
270: Home
271: Community Forums
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Photo Gallery
276: Home
277: Home
278: Home
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Home
282: Photo Gallery
283: Home
284: Home
285: Community Forums
286: Member Screenshots
287: Member Screenshots
288: Home
289: Photo Gallery
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Home
293: Downloads
294: Community Forums
295: Home
296: Downloads
297: Home
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Photo Gallery
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Home
305: Home
306: Home
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Home
310: Home
311: Community Forums
312: Home
313: Home
314: Home
315: Home
316: Home
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Member Screenshots
320: Home
321: Home
322: Home
323: Member Screenshots
324: Home
325: Downloads
326: Downloads
327: Photo Gallery
328: Your Account
329: Home
330: Downloads
331: Downloads
332: Home
333: Home
334: Home
335: Home
336: Community Forums
337: Home
338: Photo Gallery
339: Home
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: News
344: Home
345: Home
346: Member Screenshots
347: Home
348: Home
349: Photo Gallery
350: Home
351: Home
352: Home
353: Home
354: Home
355: Home
356: Home
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Downloads
361: Home
362: Home
363: Community Forums
364: News Archive
365: Community Forums
366: Home
367: Home
368: Home
369: Community Forums
370: Your Account
371: News Archive
372: Member Screenshots
373: Community Forums
374: Home
375: Home
376: Home
377: Community Forums
378: Home
379: Member Screenshots
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Home
383: Community Forums
384: Home
385: Community Forums
386: Home
387: Home
388: Home
389: Home
390: Community Forums
391: Member Screenshots
392: Home
393: Home
394: Community Forums
395: Community Forums
396: Member Screenshots
397: Home
398: Community Forums
399: Home
400: Home
401: Photo Gallery
402: Home
403: Photo Gallery
404: Photo Gallery
405: Home
406: Photo Gallery
407: Photo Gallery
408: Photo Gallery
409: Home
410: Community Forums
411: Home
412: Home
413: Downloads
414: Home
415: Community Forums
416: Home
417: Member Screenshots
418: Photo Gallery
419: Community Forums
420: Photo Gallery
421: Photo Gallery
422: Home
423: Photo Gallery
424: Photo Gallery
425: Member Screenshots
426: Community Forums
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: Home
430: Home
431: Member Screenshots
432: Home
433: Community Forums
434: Home
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Home
438: Community Forums
439: News Archive
440: Home
441: Home
442: Community Forums
443: Home
444: Community Forums
445: Community Forums
446: Home
447: Photo Gallery
448: Home
449: Home
450: Community Forums
451: Downloads
452: Home
453: Home
454: Home
455: Home
456: Home
457: Community Forums
458: Home
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Home
463: Home
464: Home
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Member Screenshots
469: Community Forums
470: Member Screenshots
471: Community Forums
472: Home
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Home
476: Community Forums
477: Home
478: Community Forums
479: Home
480: Community Forums
481: Home
482: Home
483: Home
484: Photo Gallery
485: Statistics
486: Home
487: Home
488: Community Forums
489: Home
490: Community Forums
491: Photo Gallery
492: Home
493: Photo Gallery
494: Home
495: Community Forums
496: News
497: Home
498: Home
499: Community Forums
500: Photo Gallery
501: Community Forums
502: Home
503: Member Screenshots
504: Home
505: Home
506: Home
507: Photo Gallery
508: Photo Gallery
509: Home
510: Home
511: Photo Gallery
512: Home
513: Home
514: Home
515: Community Forums
516: Home
517: Member Screenshots
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Photo Gallery
521: Photo Gallery
522: Home
523: Photo Gallery
524: Home
525: Downloads
526: Community Forums
527: Photo Gallery
528: Downloads
529: Home
530: Community Forums
531: Photo Gallery
532: Home
533: Community Forums
534: News Archive
535: Home
536: Home
537: Home
538: Community Forums
539: Member Screenshots

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
TG "Tank Grotte" Russian 1931 Heavy Tank - German+Russian ?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
BenjaminLiottel
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 07, 2006
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:41 am
Post subject: TG "Tank Grotte" Russian 1931 Heavy Tank - German+Russian ?

Here is a summary of all the information I can glean from books I own and online:

"TG Tank (Tank Grote or Grotte) was a heavy tank of very advanced design, with low silhouette and high power, built by Russia in 1931. It incorporated an unusual, almost futuristic, design with turret rounded on top, a feature 15 years before its time. A very sleek, heavy design, it sported a 76.2 A-19 cannon in the lower turret, a 37mm PS-2 gun in the upper turret, aswell as three 7.62mm M-1910 machine guns in the lower turret, and two 7.62 DT machine guns in hull sides. It could run on roadwheels or tracks. The tank was jointly developed by the Red Army of the Soviet Union, and the German Army of the Weimar Republic of Germany. After completion and testing of the TG-1, all German engineers were repatriated from the USSR. Due to a manufacturing error the lower turret of the prototype was fixed. The engine designed for use in the TG was not completed in time, and an M-6 engine was substituted, although it did not fit properly in the engine compartment. Max armor was 50mm. Max speed 25mph."

Could this be true? Could the TG-1 have been a joint Russian and German design? Nothing like the TG-1 would appear in Russia for many years - it does seem to be a 'futuristic' design. Both Germany and Russia were eager to try and gain know-how about building tanks, so I could believe this story.

Can anyone back up this with facts?

Here are some pictures of the TG-1:
ww2photo.mimerswell.co.../06044.jpg
www.militaertechnik-de...tart23.gif
www.nemo.nu/ibisportal.../grote.jpg
www.onwar.com/tanks/us...ans/tg.gif

Furthermore, does anyone have any aditional pictures of this prototype? If this indeed was a partly German design, I'm sure all the Panzer Heads out there would love to learn all about it! It's a very interesting design. In the line-art of it, the front view of the turret is reminiscent of an Abrams!

---Liottel.

P.S. One of my tank books seems to think that "Grotte Tank" simply means "Heavy Tank" in Russian - but the battlefield.ru website says that the leader of the small group of German engineers sent to build the first prototype Heavy Tank for Russia (because they simply couldn't do it on their own) were led by 'Edward Grotte'. The lessons learned by the Russians during the building of the single TG-1 Heavy Tank would be put to use to build the T-35 Heavy Tank, and greatly increased Russias knowledge of armor building. Could the "Grotte Tank" have been named after the German engineer who helped build it ??

Keep in mind, virtually all information on early Russian armor is muddled with misinformation. But, why Russians would freely admit to their first heavy-tank being brought to life by Germans they hired, is beyond me.
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:43 am
Post subject: Re: TG "Tank Grotte" Russian 1931 Heavy Tank - German+Russian ?

Interesting. The dome type turrets appear in other designs of that era Look at some of the British designs like the 'Independent'.

I know we don't have many angles to look at but I have a little problem with thinking the lower gun position is in a rotating turret. The dimensions just don't look right. It may be that it is designed with a large overhang (but it doesn't seem to have enough clearance from the hull top) but the fore to aft dimension looks to great to be rotating turret. And then there would be the problems of having one turret rotating on topof the other and not on the same axis.

It is an interesting design and I can almost see the KV series growing out of it.

By the way there seems to be a problem with your 4th link (the one to onwar.com)

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Tanklord
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 817
Location: Louisiana
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:20 pm
Post subject: Re: TG "Tank Grotte" Russian 1931 Heavy Tank - German+Russia

Could "Grotte" be "Grosse"? The lettering used in Old german makes "S" look like a "T" sometimes. Just my thoughts on the name.

_________________
The only thing to do when a son-of-a-bitch looks
cross-eyed at you is to beat the hell out of him right
then and there
Back to top
View user's profile Yahoo Messenger
BenjaminLiottel
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 07, 2006
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:44 pm
Post subject: Re: TG "Tank Grotte" Russian 1931 Heavy Tank - German+Russia

Sorry folks, the fourth link is from a site that apparently doesn't like linking to its images... Here is the same image, (Copyright Maxim Kolomiets).

s1.simpload.com/070844...274208.gif

Yes, the extremities of the turret would not be where the turret ring was. Clearly it had some sort of modern 'turret overhang'.

I do not think the fact that the upper turret revolved on a different axis as the main would be much of an issue. For instance, the M3 tank had a secondary machine-gun turret on top of its primary 37mm gun turret - and it clearly rotated on a different axis. It would be basically impossible for the 37mm gun to be brought to bear on one target, while at the same time the turret cupola machine gunner brought his gun to bear on a different target.

Also, the later T-35 Heavy Tank was clearly inspired by the Independent tank, its turret was taller, and even had a sort of dome like top to some of the models. This tank however, had a squat primary turret - the secondary turret was domed, yes, but the primary had much more in common with far later tanks than the Independent.

---Liottel.
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:30 pm
Post subject: Re: TG "Tank Grotte" Russian 1931 Heavy Tank - German+Russian ?

I don't think there was much intent in the M3 Lee for the machinegun to be used for independent fire. If I remember correctly in some contemporary sources it was listed as an anti-aircraft gun. (another flawed concept) That was also the tank commanders position so he would tend to be occupied with directing the fighting of the 75mm and/or the 37mm gun.

I think recoil would be a problem with a gun as large as a 37mm mounted in a secondary turret off the centerline of rotation. Everytime the 37mm was fired when it wasn'tpointed down the centerline of the main turret it would put stress on the rotating gear of the main turret which would potentially affect the aim or operation of the main turret gun. It would also complicate gunlaying and target tracking for the 37mm. But all these are things that would be found out during trials and operational use. The late 20's and early 30's were a time of innovation in armored warfare

It would be interesting to find out details of the suspension. Did it use torsion bars, large coil springs like the Christie tanks, or something else. The potential for wheel or track operation is also interesting. That is a complexity that I don't remember seeing in any other German designs

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:07 am
Post subject: Re: TG "Tank Grotte" Russian 1931 Heavy Tank - German+Russia

Luckily I have done a lot of research on Edward Grote and previous messages on him can probably still be found in the old archives...

- BenjaminLiottel

Could this be true? Could the TG-1 have been a joint Russian and German design? Nothing like the TG-1 would appear in Russia for many years - it does seem to be a 'futuristic' design. Both Germany and Russia were eager to try and gain know-how about building tanks, so I could believe this story.


After visiting Germany in late 1929/early 1930 Members of the Soviet Mission invited german engineer Edward Grote to the USSR. After his arrival, Grote began work at the AVO-5 Design Office, within the Aviation Engine Department of the 'Bolshevik' Factory. He led a team that was engaged on designing on a heavily armored, medium-weight tank as an alternative to the maneuverable T-24 . In 1930, prototypes of the experimental, TG Tank (Tank Grote) aka T-22 were subjected to trials and found to have some faults. Despite rectifying the faults that were found during testing, it was decided that the TG Tank would not be placed in production. Further work on the TG Tank was suspended and the services of Edward Grote were no longer required and in August 1933, Grote was requested to leave the USSR.

He then went to France and worked at Renault on the experimental G1 R series of tanks. towit the G1 R [75mm] - French experimental model and the G1 R [47mm] - Original french concept with 47mm in turret and 75mm in hull.

On the declaration of war he moved to the USA and is rumoured to have been involved in the design of the Lee & Sherman tanks. His speciality seems to have been cast turrets and there is more than a passing resemblance between the Lee and the G1R 47mm version.

Incidentally the Renault G1 R holds the record for being the only tank ever to have been rejected by an army because it EXCEEDED the official requirements.

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
BenjaminLiottel
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 07, 2006
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:33 am
Post subject: Re: TG "Tank Grotte" Russian 1931 Heavy Tank - German+Russian ?

Awesome information Jim!!

This was certainly one of the coolest tanks of its time. I mean, it had very good armor for the time (50mm max!), a good top speed for the time, and it had a 75mm gun AND a 37mm!

I wonder if the 75mm was a high-velocity gun? It had a long barrel, so I'm guessing it was a true heavy tank cannon, rather than some sort of howitzer. That would mean it could easily out-gun any tank in the world for literally years and years, until 75mm guns became commonplace in WWII!

Amazing design. Can you enlighten us on whether the bottom turret did indeed have traverse, or limited traverse, or was it fixed? I read that there was a manufacturing accident, and in the final product the bottom turret was fixed - but it was meant to be able to turn.

---Liottel.
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:46 pm
Post subject: Re: TG "Tank Grotte" Russian 1931 Heavy Tank - German+Russia

- BenjaminLiottel
Awesome information Jim!!

This was certainly one of the coolest tanks of its time. I mean, it had very good armor for the time (50mm max!), a good top speed for the time, and it had a 75mm gun AND a 37mm!

I wonder if the 75mm was a high-velocity gun? It had a long barrel, so I'm guessing it was a true heavy tank cannon, rather than some sort of howitzer. That would mean it could easily out-gun any tank in the world for literally years and years, until 75mm guns became commonplace in WWII!

Amazing design. Can you enlighten us on whether the bottom turret did indeed have traverse, or limited traverse, or was it fixed? I read that there was a manufacturing accident, and in the final product the bottom turret was fixed - but it was meant to be able to turn.

---Liottel.


Check the provided link, it should answer all your questions. I would have provided the link sooner but the Russian Battlefield site was down for a long , long time.

Tank Grotte (TG) at the Russian Battlefield

Be sure to check the rest of the site as well, it is truly excellent!

Cheers,
Rik

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
BenjaminLiottel
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jul 07, 2006
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:08 pm
Post subject: Re: TG "Tank Grotte" Russian 1931 Heavy Tank - German+Russian ?

Fascinating stuff!

It still doesn't entirely put to rest the turret question though. Yes, by the time it was built the lower 'turret' could not move, only the top turret could rotat. But, was that how it was designed all along? Or, as I read in a different web page, was there a manufacturing problem and while trying to make the rotating lower turret, it was decided to make it fixed?

A gun that can only be aimed around ±10° in all directions seems to have quite limited tactical use, especially with how long this vehicle is. It would have to stop, and pivot on its tracks to try and sight in an enemy - yet the vehicle is so long, pivoting would be very hard. Vehicles like the StuG could pivot easily because they had a very short body. So I am inclined to believe the lower turret was originally meant to rotate, although obviously I seem to have no proof.

---Vil.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum