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Maple_Leaf_Eh · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 517

www.canada.com/ottawac...3c&k=94676

Today's Citizen has an extensive story about the Army suddenly wanting to keep the REMAINING Leopard tanks, in preference to the MGS and MMEV.

I haven't followed this particular issue very closely; Canada doesn't deploy its tanks without a whole huge preamble and then hardly uses them. Instead, their value is in maintaining a particular skillset for combined arms teams.

The story goes that the Chief of the Defence Staff (an ex 8CH tanker) and the Minister of Defence (an other ex 8CH tanker) have seen a new mission for heavy armour. The LAV III with a 105 gun has fallen out of favour, and the all swinging all singing LAV III anti-air missile and ground fire turret is even less exciting. The jobs for the locals arguments are there, and the dissenters from the military press are named.

The part of the story that got my attention was that half of the Leopards had been destroyed as hard targets, designated as monuments or SOLD to US companies as forest fire fighting chassis'. Anyone care to jump in?

Dubliner · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 94

nt

LavTech · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 11

This was just released on Canada.com. Looks like there may be a possibility afterall.

ARMY DOES ABOUT-FACE ON TANK REPLACEMENTS Ã¢â‚¬â€œ In an abrupt about-face, CanadaÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s army has put a halt to the disposal of its Leopard tanks and is now asking for permission to cancel the acquisition of two types of lighter armored vehicles that were to be bought as replacements.
The Defense Department has blown up, sold or given away a little less than half of the armyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s fleet of tanks, but further disposal has been put on hold and the army requested last month the Defense Department cancel the serviceÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s Mobile Gun System and the Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle programs.
Army officials refuse to discuss the reasons for the change of heart, but it is believed some senior officers raised concerns future war zones would require better protection than that offered by the MGS and MMEV vehicles. (Source: Canada.com)

bsmart

From here I see it going in one of two directions.

After the 'upgrade' to MMEV and MGS vehicles is canceled someone will decide the Leopards are in too bad of shape to continue in use. They will then either

1) Accept an offer for refurbed M1 Abrahms from the U.S.

or

2) Just decommision the Leopards and not replace them with anything and 'save' the money that would have been spent.

Any one want to make a wager Smile

Neil_Baumgardner

Yeah, I cant help but wonder how survivable Leo 1s are against modern RPGs either. But thats sorta the tank destroyer vs Sherman argument...

Neil

Maple_Leaf_Eh · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 517

The main armour on a Leo was designed to protect (notice I didn't say defeat) the Warsaw Pact's best. First the T54/55 and T62, then upgraded with the Wegmann (?) 1A5 kit against the T72. Not that the whole tank could be safe, but the essentials were adequate. We know that the latest generation Western tanks are almost impervious to common threats. All the same, I doubt an RPG of the average ACM or OMF grade would be a show stopper.

Tonight's news had significant combat footage of the 1PPCLI BG in and around PASHMUL, PANJWAYI district, KANDAHAR prov. Canadians have taken the battle hard to the Taliban, and audiences are becoming accustomed to war footage, ramp ceremonies and grieving. Not a common sight on Canadian TV.

The bad guys had sheltered in compounds and inside brick drying barns. The M203 and 25mm Chain Guns didn't penetrate the walls. Time for TOW or ERYX (God forbid), or 105mm? We'll see how badly the combined arms concept plays out against irregular and unpredictable opponents.

mike_Duplessis · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 236

This abrupt move almost sounds like they finally got their hands on a production MGS (no more promising "Oh, we promise to fix that on the production run) and did not like the final results at all.

Neil_Baumgardner

- Maple_Leaf_Eh

The main armour on a Leo was designed to protect (notice I didn't say defeat) the Warsaw Pact's best. First the T54/55 and T62, then upgraded with the Wegmann (?) 1A5 kit against the T72. Not that the whole tank could be safe, but the essentials were adequate. We know that the latest generation Western tanks are almost impervious to common threats. All the same, I doubt an RPG of the average ACM or OMF grade would be a show stopper.

Okay, frontal arc potection against 125mm KE rounds, sure. What about side protection against RPGs? I wont bother asking about rear protection since almost everything fails there - but how up to snuff is the side protection on a C2?

Neil

bsmart

A welding torch and some bar armor can help that
(Ot since it is a German tank should we call it schurzen? :-))

Neil_Baumgardner

Agreed, but to be the devil's advocate, if thats the solution against RPGs why do you need a Leo 1 then?

Neil

mike_Duplessis · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 236

Leopard 1A5 frontal protection against 125mm APFSDS? That sounds very odd, like claiming a T55 could be uparmored to protect against 120mm KE. I thought the 1A5 turret was the cast design with rextra armor and the rangefinder ears deleted. The original Canadian welded types had got swapped-out for used German turrets. The best I had heard the Leopard 1 could get was protection against the T62 115mm gun's steel dart.

But hey, I'm not exactly in-the-loop on this stuff.

Dubliner · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 94

nt

Neil_Baumgardner

But frankly, if the rationale is what is going on in Iraq today, is frontal protection against 125mm or 115mm KE tank rounds all that relevant? If fighting other tanks is your main requirement, then a tank like the Leo C2 or something even better may make sense.

I dont know if this website is totally valid, but it claims the Leo C2 glacis is a little better than the M48/M60/AMX-30 class... Again, how good is the side protection?

members.tripod.com/col...rotect.htm

Neil

Maple_Leaf_Eh · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 517

The silence to Neil's question about side armour protection says it all. I don't think anyone on this forum can accurately respond.

The Leopard C1 was a stock 1970's production German tank of the contemporary design. The C2 is not a new tank. It is turret upgrade to the last Leo 1 standard with some year 2000-plus improvements to the hull. I remember chuckling that the Canadian government announced buying tank upgrade kits, which included turret transporters (ie. tracked chassis'). The old turrets were swapped out for German 1A5 turrets that had been upgraded then put in reserve. Rather than destroy them, the Germans sold them to Canada at a free or favourable price.

As for hard targets and ones flogged on the open market, it occured to me that in any fleet there would always be a number of hanger queens. Maybe the ones shot up and sold off, were the dogs of the fleet. They could have been high mileage tanks or had repaired damage, cracked or dented plates and otherwise not ballistically reliable. Sure the uppers were fitted with standard equipment, but these were not the "keepers".

Maple_Leaf_Eh · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 517

Just returned from a family road trip, which included a stop at Old Fort Henry in Kingston Ontario. The Guard performs Victorian period foot and rifle drill inside a reconstructed fortress, back from when Canada was worried about those rascally rebel Yanks.

There is a Leopard C2 at 44 14 10N, 076 27 51W at the entrance to Royal Military College. It is in new out of the box surplus condition. The glossy green paint still has that QM smell, and there is negligible rusting. My guess is it was delivered this summer. No markings or numbers whatsoever. Any decals or stenciling would be under that shiney and unauthentic paint. Perhaps it masks off the CARC methyl ethyl badstuff paint? This is the first display Leopard I have seen outside of the Lebreton Gallery at the War Museum.

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