±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 813
Total: 813
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Home
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Photo Gallery
09: Photo Gallery
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Photo Gallery
13: Photo Gallery
14: Photo Gallery
15: Community Forums
16: Photo Gallery
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Photo Gallery
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Downloads
28: Community Forums
29: News
30: Home
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Downloads
34: Photo Gallery
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Home
41: Community Forums
42: Downloads
43: Community Forums
44: Photo Gallery
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Downloads
48: Photo Gallery
49: Home
50: Downloads
51: Photo Gallery
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Photo Gallery
55: Photo Gallery
56: Downloads
57: Community Forums
58: Member Screenshots
59: Photo Gallery
60: Home
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Home
65: Home
66: Home
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Member Screenshots
75: News Archive
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Photo Gallery
79: Home
80: Home
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Home
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Downloads
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Photo Gallery
90: Home
91: Downloads
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Photo Gallery
95: Member Screenshots
96: Member Screenshots
97: Photo Gallery
98: Community Forums
99: Home
100: Photo Gallery
101: Home
102: Photo Gallery
103: Photo Gallery
104: Photo Gallery
105: Photo Gallery
106: Photo Gallery
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Photo Gallery
110: Photo Gallery
111: Photo Gallery
112: News Archive
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Home
117: Photo Gallery
118: Photo Gallery
119: Photo Gallery
120: Home
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Home
124: Home
125: Home
126: Home
127: Home
128: Home
129: Home
130: Photo Gallery
131: Home
132: Photo Gallery
133: Home
134: Member Screenshots
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Downloads
140: Photo Gallery
141: Community Forums
142: Photo Gallery
143: Member Screenshots
144: Photo Gallery
145: Community Forums
146: Home
147: Photo Gallery
148: Community Forums
149: Photo Gallery
150: Community Forums
151: Photo Gallery
152: Photo Gallery
153: Home
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Photo Gallery
158: Downloads
159: Home
160: Member Screenshots
161: Photo Gallery
162: Photo Gallery
163: Home
164: Photo Gallery
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Photo Gallery
168: Community Forums
169: Photo Gallery
170: Photo Gallery
171: Photo Gallery
172: Community Forums
173: Photo Gallery
174: Photo Gallery
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Photo Gallery
178: Community Forums
179: Statistics
180: Photo Gallery
181: Photo Gallery
182: Home
183: Home
184: Photo Gallery
185: Downloads
186: Downloads
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Photo Gallery
190: Home
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Member Screenshots
194: Photo Gallery
195: Community Forums
196: Photo Gallery
197: Photo Gallery
198: News
199: Member Screenshots
200: Community Forums
201: News Archive
202: Downloads
203: Photo Gallery
204: Photo Gallery
205: Your Account
206: Photo Gallery
207: Photo Gallery
208: Home
209: Photo Gallery
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Photo Gallery
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: Statistics
220: Photo Gallery
221: Home
222: Member Screenshots
223: Photo Gallery
224: Home
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Photo Gallery
228: Home
229: Statistics
230: Member Screenshots
231: Photo Gallery
232: Member Screenshots
233: Community Forums
234: Photo Gallery
235: Community Forums
236: Home
237: Statistics
238: Home
239: Home
240: Community Forums
241: Photo Gallery
242: Home
243: Home
244: Photo Gallery
245: Home
246: Photo Gallery
247: Statistics
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Home
252: Member Screenshots
253: Photo Gallery
254: Home
255: Member Screenshots
256: Photo Gallery
257: Photo Gallery
258: Community Forums
259: Photo Gallery
260: Photo Gallery
261: Photo Gallery
262: Photo Gallery
263: Home
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Photo Gallery
267: Photo Gallery
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Home
271: Statistics
272: LinkToUs
273: Home
274: Photo Gallery
275: Photo Gallery
276: Member Screenshots
277: Community Forums
278: Photo Gallery
279: Member Screenshots
280: Downloads
281: Photo Gallery
282: Photo Gallery
283: Home
284: Statistics
285: Home
286: Downloads
287: Photo Gallery
288: Photo Gallery
289: Photo Gallery
290: Photo Gallery
291: Community Forums
292: Your Account
293: Member Screenshots
294: Home
295: Statistics
296: Community Forums
297: Community Forums
298: Home
299: Home
300: Photo Gallery
301: Downloads
302: Photo Gallery
303: Photo Gallery
304: Community Forums
305: News
306: Home
307: Home
308: Photo Gallery
309: Community Forums
310: Photo Gallery
311: Community Forums
312: Downloads
313: Photo Gallery
314: Photo Gallery
315: Community Forums
316: Member Screenshots
317: Community Forums
318: Photo Gallery
319: Home
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Member Screenshots
323: Photo Gallery
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Home
327: Home
328: Statistics
329: Home
330: Community Forums
331: Member Screenshots
332: Home
333: Photo Gallery
334: Photo Gallery
335: Community Forums
336: Home
337: Photo Gallery
338: Downloads
339: Photo Gallery
340: Photo Gallery
341: Photo Gallery
342: Photo Gallery
343: Home
344: Home
345: Photo Gallery
346: Home
347: Photo Gallery
348: Member Screenshots
349: Downloads
350: Photo Gallery
351: Photo Gallery
352: Photo Gallery
353: Home
354: Home
355: Home
356: Home
357: News
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Home
361: Downloads
362: Community Forums
363: Home
364: Downloads
365: Community Forums
366: Downloads
367: Home
368: Downloads
369: Home
370: Member Screenshots
371: Community Forums
372: Photo Gallery
373: Photo Gallery
374: Community Forums
375: Home
376: Home
377: Community Forums
378: Member Screenshots
379: Home
380: Community Forums
381: Photo Gallery
382: Statistics
383: Home
384: Community Forums
385: Photo Gallery
386: Downloads
387: Photo Gallery
388: Photo Gallery
389: Home
390: Member Screenshots
391: Home
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: News Archive
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Photo Gallery
398: Home
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Home
402: Home
403: Home
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Member Screenshots
408: Home
409: Downloads
410: Community Forums
411: Statistics
412: Home
413: Photo Gallery
414: Photo Gallery
415: Photo Gallery
416: Community Forums
417: Member Screenshots
418: Photo Gallery
419: Photo Gallery
420: Community Forums
421: Photo Gallery
422: Home
423: Home
424: Home
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: Photo Gallery
430: Photo Gallery
431: Photo Gallery
432: Member Screenshots
433: Photo Gallery
434: Photo Gallery
435: Member Screenshots
436: Community Forums
437: Community Forums
438: Member Screenshots
439: Photo Gallery
440: Home
441: Statistics
442: Photo Gallery
443: Photo Gallery
444: Downloads
445: Home
446: Photo Gallery
447: Community Forums
448: Home
449: Home
450: Photo Gallery
451: Photo Gallery
452: Member Screenshots
453: Home
454: Photo Gallery
455: Photo Gallery
456: Home
457: Home
458: Member Screenshots
459: Photo Gallery
460: Community Forums
461: Photo Gallery
462: Photo Gallery
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Downloads
466: Home
467: Member Screenshots
468: Member Screenshots
469: Photo Gallery
470: Home
471: Home
472: Member Screenshots
473: Community Forums
474: Photo Gallery
475: Community Forums
476: Photo Gallery
477: Photo Gallery
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Photo Gallery
481: Downloads
482: Community Forums
483: Photo Gallery
484: Photo Gallery
485: Downloads
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Photo Gallery
489: Community Forums
490: Photo Gallery
491: Home
492: Home
493: Statistics
494: Photo Gallery
495: Home
496: Home
497: Photo Gallery
498: Home
499: Statistics
500: Community Forums
501: Photo Gallery
502: Photo Gallery
503: Photo Gallery
504: Photo Gallery
505: Photo Gallery
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Home
509: Photo Gallery
510: Photo Gallery
511: Photo Gallery
512: Photo Gallery
513: Photo Gallery
514: Photo Gallery
515: Photo Gallery
516: News
517: Community Forums
518: Photo Gallery
519: Member Screenshots
520: News Archive
521: Photo Gallery
522: Photo Gallery
523: Home
524: Home
525: Community Forums
526: Community Forums
527: Home
528: Photo Gallery
529: News Archive
530: Photo Gallery
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Home
534: Photo Gallery
535: Photo Gallery
536: Photo Gallery
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: News
540: Photo Gallery
541: Photo Gallery
542: Home
543: Photo Gallery
544: Downloads
545: Community Forums
546: Downloads
547: News
548: Downloads
549: News
550: Photo Gallery
551: Community Forums
552: Community Forums
553: Downloads
554: Community Forums
555: Photo Gallery
556: Downloads
557: Community Forums
558: News Archive
559: Community Forums
560: Home
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Photo Gallery
564: Community Forums
565: Home
566: Photo Gallery
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Photo Gallery
571: Home
572: Home
573: News Archive
574: News
575: Statistics
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Home
580: Home
581: Photo Gallery
582: Photo Gallery
583: Home
584: Photo Gallery
585: Photo Gallery
586: News Archive
587: Photo Gallery
588: Photo Gallery
589: Statistics
590: Photo Gallery
591: Community Forums
592: Downloads
593: Photo Gallery
594: Home
595: Photo Gallery
596: Photo Gallery
597: Downloads
598: Photo Gallery
599: Home
600: Home
601: Community Forums
602: Home
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Home
606: Photo Gallery
607: Community Forums
608: Photo Gallery
609: Member Screenshots
610: Home
611: Home
612: Home
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Photo Gallery
616: Photo Gallery
617: Photo Gallery
618: Downloads
619: Home
620: Community Forums
621: Photo Gallery
622: Community Forums
623: Photo Gallery
624: Home
625: Photo Gallery
626: Community Forums
627: Photo Gallery
628: Home
629: Photo Gallery
630: Photo Gallery
631: Community Forums
632: Photo Gallery
633: Photo Gallery
634: Home
635: Community Forums
636: Member Screenshots
637: Photo Gallery
638: Home
639: Photo Gallery
640: Home
641: Member Screenshots
642: Member Screenshots
643: Photo Gallery
644: Home
645: Photo Gallery
646: Community Forums
647: Photo Gallery
648: Community Forums
649: Home
650: Contact
651: Home
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Photo Gallery
655: Home
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Photo Gallery
659: Home
660: Downloads
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Statistics
664: Photo Gallery
665: Downloads
666: Home
667: Home
668: Statistics
669: Photo Gallery
670: Community Forums
671: Photo Gallery
672: Community Forums
673: Member Screenshots
674: Downloads
675: Community Forums
676: Home
677: Home
678: Member Screenshots
679: Photo Gallery
680: Downloads
681: Photo Gallery
682: Photo Gallery
683: Photo Gallery
684: Downloads
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Photo Gallery
688: Community Forums
689: Home
690: Photo Gallery
691: Photo Gallery
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Downloads
695: Downloads
696: Member Screenshots
697: Photo Gallery
698: Photo Gallery
699: Home
700: Community Forums
701: Community Forums
702: Downloads
703: Photo Gallery
704: Statistics
705: Home
706: Home
707: Photo Gallery
708: Member Screenshots
709: Downloads
710: Downloads
711: Photo Gallery
712: Downloads
713: Photo Gallery
714: Member Screenshots
715: Photo Gallery
716: Home
717: Photo Gallery
718: Community Forums
719: Photo Gallery
720: Downloads
721: Home
722: Photo Gallery
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Home
726: Member Screenshots
727: News Archive
728: Home
729: Community Forums
730: News Archive
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Home
734: Community Forums
735: Home
736: Community Forums
737: Downloads
738: Home
739: Member Screenshots
740: Community Forums
741: Community Forums
742: Community Forums
743: Community Forums
744: Community Forums
745: Photo Gallery
746: Community Forums
747: Home
748: Community Forums
749: Photo Gallery
750: Community Forums
751: Home
752: Statistics
753: Member Screenshots
754: Statistics
755: Photo Gallery
756: Photo Gallery
757: News
758: Photo Gallery
759: News Archive
760: Photo Gallery
761: Photo Gallery
762: Home
763: News Archive
764: News
765: Community Forums
766: Photo Gallery
767: Home
768: Photo Gallery
769: Community Forums
770: Photo Gallery
771: Photo Gallery
772: Photo Gallery
773: Statistics
774: Downloads
775: News Archive
776: Community Forums
777: Photo Gallery
778: Photo Gallery
779: Photo Gallery
780: Community Forums
781: Community Forums
782: Downloads
783: Photo Gallery
784: Photo Gallery
785: Photo Gallery
786: Photo Gallery
787: News Archive
788: Home
789: Home
790: Photo Gallery
791: Photo Gallery
792: Home
793: Community Forums
794: Community Forums
795: Community Forums
796: Photo Gallery
797: Photo Gallery
798: Photo Gallery
799: News Archive
800: Member Screenshots
801: Community Forums
802: Home
803: Photo Gallery
804: Photo Gallery
805: Photo Gallery
806: Member Screenshots
807: Photo Gallery
808: Home
809: Photo Gallery
810: Home
811: News
812: Photo Gallery
813: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
"Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:57 pm
Post subject: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

Mainly for Oldtop, but Roy and some others may shed some light:

I'm trying to get a handle on what it was that made top-loading air filters less satisfactory than side loaders apart from convenience/access, if anything. That is, were they less efficient or just less likely to receive attention? I've crewed vehicles (M48A2, M60A1, M60A2) with both systems, but only at Ft. Knox which isn't as dusty as some other locations that come to mind.

Also, I notice that some of the top loaders on M60A1's have a smooth-sided armored box on the outward side while others have a single horizontal "ridge" there, like on this one:
image2.sina.com.cn/jc/...093650.jpg

...my pics of the M60A1 side-skirt test vehicle, "Hotpants", has this ridge too. I don't recall any function associated with it.

Thanks!
D.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:56 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

Hi Doug, all,

The top loading air cleaners were made of steel, rather than aluminum as the originals were. I recall that our maintenance guys didn't like the side loaders because the mechanisms were easily damaged, hard to repair, and the filter elements were often screwed up by crews trying to jam them back in. The doors were tricky and the seals often leaked, which is a problem when they are sucking air in that close to the tracks! The doors were a problem from the beginning, and the horizontal rib your pic shows is a reinforcment to stiffen the door and keep from flexing. (Yup, that's a side loader in your pic.)

I remember fighting with both, and hated the side loaders. The filter element was a very tight fit, and had to be held at just the right angle. However, you had to stand beside the tank and hold the heavy element at roughly shoulder-height to do this, which made it double hard. We usually used two folks to do it, one on the ground and one on the tank (leaning over the side) to guide it into the slots. The top loaders were a piece of cake, and the element just dropped into it's cradle.

Sometime after the A1s began to be produced, fairly early in the run, they changed to the top loading 'armored' type. I remember hearing that this was originally done by the Israelis, and adopted by us. But there are/were some A1s with the old-style side-loaders. The RISE modifications were supposed to replace these, when they were done.

This is all from deep memory, so I await corrections from better memories!

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:42 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

Thanks, Chuck...

Only now, I'm really confused! I based my phrasing on "Oldtops" comment in the other thread:

One indecater that this is an first production is "side loader " air filter housing which is the same as on the M48A3 upgrade, M60A1s picker up the "top loader" armored box type...and with which the vehicle was damned for its operation life.


...which I understood (perhaps incorrectly) to mean that the toploaders were the troublesome types.

As I didn't personally experience problems with either, I'm just trying to clarify in my mind which system was preferred, and why. Sounds like you're more a fan of the toploaders.

Cheers!
D.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:34 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

The first problem with top loaders was they stood out and everything fired at the tank hit them, 10 micorms (I could put that much dirt in your eye and you wouldn't notice it)of dust would kill the 1790 diesel engine.
The side loaders were postive sealing (when the cover was closed it was sealed) . The top loaders lid had two legs (one on each side) that engaed two studs on each side of air filter cage, when the lid close it was desiged for the leg to force the element (cage) seal into the front of the aircleaner housing so that no unfiltered air could be drawn into the engine intake..or all air had to go through the filter element first. The filter elements were a group of bag shaped cloth or paper envelopes held in a welded steel cage with a rubber gasget on the open end.
Problem #1 Each manufacter placed the metal studs a little bit off from what the specs called for, so when you closed the lid the leg may or may not engae the two studs and complete seal.
Problem#2 It was possible for the crewmen to put the element in backwards and by standing on the lid get the bolt holes to line up enough to get the bolts in...results were raw unfiltered air in the engine.
Problem #3 The soution was to weld shims to the lid legs to make sure they made contacted with the studs on the element cage. To do this the instuction for testing the seal was to coat the element seal with art white lead oil paint close and bolt down the lid then unbolt it and open the lid and check to see if there was a complet impression from the seal on the end of the housing...."However" because each manufacter place the studs differantly if you had welded shims the seal could end up too tight and the gasget seal was crushed and no airtight seal..raw unfiltered air (again).
My solution was to glue plastic shim or ring cut from PVC pipe on the studs, that way the ring would crush before the seal did and I knew we had a good seal no matter what...ya it worked fine!
As for the crewmen you simply put alining makes on the filter elements and the housing and hopefully the dummys would get it right..maybe.
...sub-problem err lets call it 3A problem, on thr front of each filter housing was a elbow that conducted the filtered air to the engine intake, the problem was the 3/8" capscrews holding it to the filter housing would work lose (even with lock washers) and you had (again) raw unfiltered air getting into the engine. the solution was to go to 1/2 capscrews and a spring washer...well it worked for me.
sub-problem 3B...the cloth elements were which designed to be cleaned and reinstalled, these elements developed holes in them and the only way to detected them was to build a "ligt box" over which you placed the elements (in a dark room), as you found each hole you placed a drop of "Elmer's glue on it. This problem alone killed over 50% of the dead lined engines, the solution was to use paper "one time" uses filter element which were in such a short supply that they'er production never caught up with the needs....so tank units clean and patched the paper elements and reused them...raw air problem again!!!
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:41 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

Hi Folks!

Thanks Top for explaining your post. I guess that one is a case of the repairer's point of veiw. Surprised

I was like Doug(SORRY DOUG). While I didn't work directly with the M60s very much, I never heard any of the tankers I was around saying the top loaders were a problem. For the most part, all of them loved the top loading design. But then maybe it was a major case of they didn't know their last engine failure was caused by raw air intake.

That's two things I have learned today!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.


Last edited by Roy_A_Lingle on Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:46 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

- Roy_A_Lingle

I was like Dong. Smile


Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2069
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:19 am
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

Hi everyone,
My experience was with top loaders only, which came in armored and aluminum. Aluminum was on some of the A1's we had in 1-63 Fort Riley. The only side loaders I had any dealings with was when the Kansas National Gaurd had straight 60's and would be on the the range. The crews hated them. They wanted the simplicity of the top loader. Never had a problem getting filters either, got new ones every Q-service. I remember having to check the seals on ours too with that paint Ole Top talks about. They all sealed fine, this was in Germany, Riley and Irwin. The filters where made by Donaldson (?) from what I remember. If there was a sealing problem it would've been very evident at Irwin. I think the biggest improvement was the VDSS system, which IIRC stood for Vehicle Dust Scavenge System. It got rid of the blower motors and could self clean the filters. We had that system at Irwin. Even had a warning light in the drivers compartment. I absolutely loved that system. As far as placing a filter in wrong, yes, it could be done but you had to be a rock with lips to not notice it was when you closed the lid. To me the top loader was the way to go, and for what it's worth, blowing a pack was not a common thing, even with all the miles we drove in Germany. I guess my comparisons are also skewed by my very negative experiences with the M1 system and it's very high sensitivity to dust.
I am still trying to figure how the side loaders were less of a target than the top loaders on the 60, Both are loacated in the same place and took up the same amount of space. At least the later model top loader was armored and not aluminum.

My perspective

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:39 am
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

I am still trying to figure how the side loaders were less of a target than the top loaders on the 60, Both are loacated in the same place and took up the same amount of space. At least the later model top loader was armored and not aluminum.


I might be wrong about this, but I think Oldtop was not referring to "hostile fire" when referring to what "might be fired at them", but dirt, debris, dust and the like. I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm wrong 'bout 'dat.

Well, what's emerging here is at least a good explanation of why I was confused...it seems there are at least two bodies of opinion out there regarding air filters, and maybe some of that follows the perspective of crews vs. mechanics or something. For sure there's a basis of experience to support both views.

My own one was that there was no significant difference between the two types...each having it's own virtues and vices. But I've heard strong negative opinions expressed about the toploader before and didn't fully understand the reason for it. I'm not sure I do now, but at least there's something to go on.

I'd sure like to hear any other opinions from those with time on either or both types.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
C_Sherman
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 590

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:29 am
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

Hi Doug, Roy, Oletop, everyone!

I'm guessing that which one you hated more depended on which one gave you the most problems.

I remember our maintenance guys being very firm about putting the air filters in right, so Oletop's comments probably cover the same concerns. I remember the effort that was required to get the lids closed on the top-loaders, and how careful we had to be to get them right.

One needed and welcome improvement on the M60A3s were restriction indicators on the intake elbows...as long as no one knocked them off. They were vacuum indicators, similar to those used on many commercial diesels, that told you it was time to change/clean your filters.

I do know that the maintenance guys didn't have much nice to say about the side loaders, especially the doors. Apparently, they were subject to warpage under some conditions, which broke the seals on the filters. Fixing the doors was quite challenging, and being aluminum they were virtually impossible to weld under field conditions. The latch handle was held shut by a steel bolt, tapped into the aluminum housing. Inevitably, some young, strapping, not-so-bright crewman would overtighten the bolt and strip the hole. At some point, there were no practical bolts available large enough to retap the hole again, and the entire housing had to be replaced (or the hole had to be welded up...cheaper and simpler, but not likely). Being in a Reserve unit in the early 80's,parts were slow coming, and a simple stupid repair like that could deadline a tank for months or more.

C

_________________
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it
will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
-Herm Albright

Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc!
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:34 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

What was the compounded problem was due to dust ingestion (both filters and lose elbows) there was a shortage of engines (RISE mod) at the same time a batch of "bad" pistions got into the system so maint units were caught between a rock and a hard place as were rebuild centers, you would see engines with mixed parts (RISE and non-RISE mixed). Once the new air filtering system was in place on the production line most of the problems were ironed out.....but from 1975 to 80 maints was pure hell in the support units. As for this thing between the side loaders vs top loaders, just look at the hight deference, the Israeli IDF pointed out time after time the damage done to the housing in combat...why in the world would you desgne a vehicle with its air filtering system sitting out in the open on the fenders?????
Back to top
View user's profile
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:56 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

This story begins with the M48s. Like most med to heavy tanks they are limited by their range of operation, if one reads the manuals you'll the range of U.S. diesel powered tanks is around 300 miles. However this was not the story with the gasoline fueled models, M48s and A1s were lucky if they got 90 miles per fuel load. (the german Tiger 1 had a ture combat range of 70 to 80 plus miles) The Army tried fuel injected engines for a few more miles, I know there are pictures foating around of M48s with barrels of gas strapped to a rack on their ass to push for more range (made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck just to think about it)...So heres the rule of thumb I use in calulating the fuel needed to support a tracked vehicle in the field. For every hour of cross-country operation you lose 5% of your total road range on top of you normal fuel consumtion...or a addistional 50% of your total road range milage every 10 hours...or if you burn half your fuel in 10 hours cross contry move you'er out of the go go stuff. This was the wall every army in the world was up against..and still is. So what has this to do with airfilters you ask. Well when the U.S. went to the dieselized M60 they remove the "lil joe" (APU) and installed form -fitting fuel tanks in the engine compartment, one other thing had been removed, the aircleaners which has sat in the left and right front of the engine compartment (fuel injected M48s had been the first with airfilters moved in this manner ). Now we had a med tank with a 300 mile road range and better than 150 mile cross country range (the diesel powered M103 heavy tank could now get better than 100 miles per fuel load with twice the fuel tankage)...However we now had the airfilter housings sitting rightt out in the open for everybody to shoot at, it was like the designers had said "oh were should we put these things")
Back to top
View user's profile
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:06 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

"I do know that the maintenance guys didn't have much nice to say about the side loaders, especially the doors. Apparently, they were subject to warpage under some conditions, which broke the seals on the filters. Fixing the doors was quite challenging, and being aluminum they were virtually impossible to weld under field conditions. The latch handle was held shut by a steel bolt, tapped into the aluminum housing. Inevitably, some young, strapping, not-so-bright crewman would overtighten the bolt and strip the hole. At some point, there were no practical bolts available large enough to retap the hole again, and the entire housing had to be replaced (or the hole had to be welded up...cheaper and simpler, but not likely). Being in a Reserve unit in the early 80's,parts were slow coming, and a simple stupid repair like that could deadline a tank for months or more."
I was lucky enough to have a LM-62 welding unit with a "mig" system so I could rework the housings, once the word got out that I was repairing the housings I had Army reserve and NG units bring them to my shop for repair. With gobs of money for the Marine Reserves as well as pro welders I had a first class welding and machine shop, I mean my reserve troops built ships and powerplants for a living so they did great work.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:14 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldt

Hi Folks!

I always though that putting the air filters out on the fender was a compromise for some reason. Never realized it was to make room for larger fuel tanks.

One thing I have learned from this, which surpised me, was the fact that the side loading boxes where made out of aluminum. Shocked

Now that is a weight compromise and I guess the IDF proved that it wasn't worth it. If I understand it right, they were the ones who came up with the armored version?

I think this is a major example of everything that goes into a tank is a compromise with something else. Only combat proves if each compromise is a good or bad idea.

Thanks Top!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:51 pm
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

- oldtop
What was the compounded problem was due to dust ingestion (both filters and lose elbows) there was a shortage of engines (RISE mod) at the same time a batch of "bad" pistions got into the system so maint units were caught between a rock and a hard place as were rebuild centers, you would see engines with mixed parts (RISE and non-RISE mixed). Once the new air filtering system was in place on the production line most of the problems were ironed out.....but from 1975 to 80 maints was pure hell in the support units.


This at least partially explains my lack of familiarity with this problem in spite of the fact that I crewed side loader and top loader vehicles. All my experience was prior to 1974, so RISE parts availability was not an issue. Furthermore, I ETS'd about 60 days after the October (Yom Kippur) war, so any lessons learned by the Israelis during that one (apart from vulnerability to TOW missiles and the shortcomings of committing tanks without infantry support) were too late in coming to reach me. I'd moved on to other things.

I was also probably a bit spoiled by serving my last ~2 years at the Armor Board, one of the most support-rich units in all of tank-dom.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
oldtop
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Mar 17, 2006
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:22 am
Post subject: Re: "Patton" air filters: top loaders v. side loaders...Oldtop

The Israelis got a way with "cheating" for years (sending tanks in with out grunt support) till Yom Kippur..after all, the enemy had always ran away before! Any 2nd Lt in any other army knew you don't do that!!!
Know one ever want to fes up to how bad the M60 engine shortage was in the Marines, I had M60s sitting for over a year on my maint line/bone yard deadlined due to the lack of engines. And I couldn't get the parts to rebuild.
Back to top
View user's profile
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum