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Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Jeff,
Glad I can help, I wish I could view the pictures. It's maddening since I can see some but not others. Not sure why. D709 makes that tank an original M1 105mm. Instead of it getting upgraded to IP/IPM it was probably used as a test bed for the 120mm gun program. The IP/IPM program pretty much standardized the M1's and M1A1's automotively. If it was, the gun would be a German 120mm which had a different thermal shroud collar (one piece instead of 2) on the muzzel from the production models. Based on what everyone posted I'm sure that's what it is. When the A1 was getting fielded I got the General Dynamics description and capabilities manual (all 100 plus pages). All the pictures and illustrations were of the test models like the one you describe. I still got that book stashed away somewhere back home. As far as the skirts matching, yes it's not normal but they aren't secret anymore, just sensitive, and I'm willing to bet that tanks skirts don't pose any security risk with it's age.
As to the question "Why do people want to know serial numbers?" With me it's helps piece together a puzzel I'm working on with the M60 series. It also helps me track where they remaining examples are. Since the question was brought up, I am looking for particular M60A3 numbers, First is of any M60A3 with a serial number above 3926A, and it must end with an "A" . Also any M60A3 with a serial number from 4000M to 4038M and any above 4458M, must end with an "M". I appreciate all M60 postings this esteemed group posts, but having accurate serial numbers makes it all so much better. When I get back I plan on taking some serious time off and try to personally photo all the known M60's in America, or at least in all the bordering states from me. Hopefully gas won't be 5 bucks a gallon by then.

Joe D
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Joe,
I hope you realize M60s are easily the most common tank monument in the United States. By my count there are about 550 M60s on display around the country!

Neil
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Neil,
550, That means I only have about 460 to go. Yeah, I'm sure my Wife will have issues with this plan. In reality I have a road atlas with the M60 locations marked. Everytime I travel I try to string together the locations and photo them. I had a pretty good roll going at Wisconsin before I ended up here. I do plan on taking at least a year off when I retire. Doing that kind of driving don't bother me, I once drove all the way to Dallas and back from North East Arkansas in one day to pick up some rims I bought on Ebay (Hey, they were original Capri Mk 1 wheels). So when you post your list I'll be marking off all the M60's for possible vists.

Joe D
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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Joe,
The number was D790, but I dont think it makes that much of a difference does it? Have you got the pictures I posted of the M60A3 that was at the Barstow Vets Home while I was at Ft Irwin? My reference book is in my office at work so I can't remeber its serial off hand. I will keep my eye open for any M60's of the type you want. No matter what the tank or armor piece is I find, I always have a camera and snap pictures and write serials, and then of course post them here. I still have to visit the other three M1's on display here on the post. I intend to use Saturday morning as another chance to hunt down more Shermans, a "Lingle", and some other Sherman varients. Thanks to everyone that has assisted me on researching all these vehicles.

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bsmart
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:39 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Joe_D
Neil,
550, That means I only have about 460 to go. Yeah, I'm sure my Wife will have issues with this plan.

Joe D


Don't underestimate a wife's understanding or overestimate her patience. I've found that planning a 'tank hunting' trip to include some stops for my wife goes a long way. Stopping for some antique stores, an outlet center, or whatever is her thing gooes a long way. Sometimes I just stay in the car for some of these stops and plan the next segment of the trip or read one of the books I keep in the car.

your mileage may very. Just stay safe so you and she can worry about it.

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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:08 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Joe_D
Jeff,
If they haven't been changed out the skirts will have a metal plate welded on each one with the serial number. The static model tanks I've seen usually had the ballistic skirts (1 and 2 left, 1,2,3 and 4 right)replaced with mock ups. A more reliable source is on the rear grill doors on earlier models, same type of plate. To the left of the right tail light they would stamp the number and also the registration from what I remember. Serial numbers would start with an "L" for Lima and "D" for Detroit. Majority are then followed by 4 or 5 digits, A1's ending around 13000 from what I remember. Don't use the skirt method for late model A2's since they used the old 105 hulls and the skirts retained the original numbers on all the ones I've seen. Rebuilds had the same front headlight gaurds as the 105 tanks where as the originals had the angle gaurds like the M1A1. Hope this helps. I will check the M1's here later and verify the locations. Just gotta be able to stay on the Net.

Joe D


Hey, I just realized this would be a good way to more conclusively resolve the old Knox-APG XM1 debate!

Per the last discussion, we came to the conclusion that the Patton Museum has Full-Scale Engineering Development (FSED) Pilot Vehicle 1 (PV1); and that the Ordnance Museum has LRIP L1 or "H1." But this sounds like a pretty easy tasker per Joe's instructions to confirm (if you can read it under all the paint, etc) - to the left of the right tail-light.

Don, can you check the Patton Museum Abrams? Bob, not sure when I'll get back to APG again, can you check "Thunderbolt" on your next visit?

Neil
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:43 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Since Thunderbolt went through the Refurb shop and had the paint peeled down to bare metal it should be easy to read if it's there. I'm trying to schedule a trip up there in the next few weeks (It has been way too long).

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Bob, Neil, Jeff, everyone,
The locations for numbers I gave was based on production models I served on. I am not sure they marked any pilot models that way. I am curious if they did. There is an M-1 in front of range control at Fort Campbell. What's so unusual about it was it had the same air cleaner boxes as the M60 on the sides and was set up for a diesel engine. I wish I had taken a picture of it. Anyone have any idea why this particular tank was made???

Jeff, Yes, I do have the info on the M60A3 in Barstow, thanks to your post. Believe me guys, If I see a post with M60 in it I click on it immediately. I never know when someone finds another piece to my puzzle, The last good one was when Chuck Sherman posted M60A1 #10423 in Bouse AZ. I had been looking for a 5 digit M60A1. The best part was he posted the tow lug serial number.

Joe D
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:35 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

I found the following on the Ordnance Museum's XM1 (on the rear right skirt plate) - based on Joe D's guide above, this is L1A424 - the first Lima LRIP vehicle.



I also found this - "0002" on a side rear plate.



Neil
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MarkHolloway
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Another thing to point out is that this tank, like two at Fort Knox, does not have the CITV plate on top of the turret.

Note to Dontos: My Sheridan in 1973 was 13F172. I never forgot. I still plan to see if L6116 is here.

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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:31 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Joe D., do you have any M60 requests that I might be able to fill while here on Ft Hood with M60's? It would probably take an afternoon but I could probably drive around the post and record all the display serial numbers for you with a picture of each. Mind you I'm swamped right now work wise and I'll be at Ft Eustis for ANCOC from 5 March thru 10 April, but I'll do my best when I have the opportunity. Is there any aprticular marking that you are looking for or just serial numbers?

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SFC_Jeff_Button
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 3:33 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

I meant to ask, are you interested in AVLB and CEV varients as well?

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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Jeff,
Sorry for the slow reply, things get a little busy here once in a while. AVLB's and CEV's are always welcome. Anything M60 I am always greatfull for. There are definately some tanks at Hood I'd like to get better info/ pictures of. I will PM you a list (Short) of what I am really interested in. I had only one day to get as many pictures of the M60's when I was there last and of course I didn't have a spare memory card so was limited to far fewer pictures of each one I found. Right now I am busy with some stuff so it might be a week before I can sit down and make the list. Thanks in advance for your offer.

Joe D
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 10:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Joe, any comments on the APG XM1 info above? Did I interpret the plate info right?

Neil
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Joe_D
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Neil,
Sorry about not answering the M1 question. You said you found a number on the right rear skirt, were you saying the number was L1A424? Also you said you found 0002 on the side rear plate, I take it you are refering to the area just left of the right rear tail light that I described a while back. Based on the 0002 number and the location I'm assuming it's at, I'm pretty sure it's the LRIP H1. That's if they started numbering with the PV-1. They could have started numbering with the LRIP model. I am not familiar with any of the pilot/test vehicles numbers but it stands to reason the first XM-1 would be 0001 and the numbers would follow. I've never seen any pictures of the Aberdeen tank but the Knox one is unique with it's sideways mounted .50 cal ammo box mount and feed chute. That system was not adopted. I guess Dontos needs to get out there and find the serial number to settle the question.

Joe D
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