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M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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geoffsteer
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:42 pm
Post subject: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

Hi Guys-
The decal sheet in AFV Club's new M40 Big Shot U.S. 155mm Gun Motor Carriage kit offers a British 1960s unidentified unit. Anything happen during the sixties that the British were involved in the I cannot rmember off-hand? I mean did the British do anything interesting with their M40s?
With thanks-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)
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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 7:11 pm
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

Hi Geoff! Hi Folks!

- geoffsteer
Hi Guys-
The decal sheet in AFV Club's new M40 Big Shot U.S. 155mm Gun Motor Carriage kit offers a British 1960s unidentified unit. Anything happen during the sixties that the British were involved in the I cannot rmember off-hand? I mean did the British do anything interesting with their M40s?
With thanks-
Geoff Steer [;-{/)


Your question sent me to my books and a search for information. I didn't find much.

WW II, two vehicles, a T83 with a 155mm cannon and a T89 with a 8" inch how. (T-89 was an universal chassis which could mount the 155 cannon {M40}or the 8" howizter{M43}) were issued to the 991st Field Artillery Battalion.

Hunnicutt reports 418 M40s and 48 M43s were completed. No informantion on any other countries receiving any of them.

I have another little book from Barnes and Noble, "Twentieth-Century Artillery" which reports only 311 were build. That books reports that the French Army used some in Indochina. (That's news to me!)

I wonder where AFV got that set of markings from? Shocked

On the plus side, I am very happy to hear that AFV has finally released that kit!

Now if Academy would just released their M-728 CEV kit! Crying or Very sad
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:49 pm
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?


I wonder where AFV got that set of markings from?


Either 127 battery or P Troop Royal Artillery... though I suspect that the markings date from when P Troop/5 Regt RA were the depot unit at Larkhill during the late 1940s.

Cool

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:16 am
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb

Either 127 battery or P Troop Royal Artillery... though I suspect that the markings date from when P Troop/5 Regt RA were the depot unit at Larkhill during the late 1940s.
Cool


An artillery unit was a 'depot unit'? Shocked

In the U.S. military, we think of 'depot' as a storage and/or major repair facility.

Any chance the British meaning is the same?

Confused,
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:48 am
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

- Roy_A_Lingle

An artillery unit was a 'depot unit'? Shocked In the U.S. military, we think of 'depot' as a storage and/or major repair facility. Any chance the British meaning is the same?


No the meaning is quite different the unit is posted to Larkhill to look after all the artillery equipment - everything from rifles to missile launchers. They provide the crews for demonstrations, training courses etc. Usually only for a couple of years.

Bovington had the same except it was an armoured regiment (aka RAC Centre Regiment) split between there and lulworth.

Cool

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:30 am
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

- JimWeb

No the meaning is quite different the unit is posted to Larkhill to look after all the artillery equipment - everything from rifles to missile launchers. They provide the crews for demonstrations, training courses etc. Usually only for a couple of years.

Bovington had the same except it was an armoured regiment (aka RAC Centre Regiment) split between there and lulworth.
Cool


OK, I got the demonstrations and training courses. That would be somewhat like the US Army Artillery Center at Ft. Still and the US Air Defense Center at Ft. Bliss.

Now what do you mean by "look after"?
In the US Army, crews do 1st echelon maintance which is cleaning things and replacing some minor items. I get the impression that Larkhill, Bovington,and Lulworth are storage areas (like some US Depots which are manned mostly by permanent civilian work force that can do any and all types of repairs). Do the British troops learn to repair everything at their depots?

Interesting!
Sgt, Scouts Out! Smile

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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:16 am
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

No Larkhill Bovington and Lulworth are all schools though they do have a workshop attached...

Cool

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jch_in_uk
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:21 am
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

- geoffsteer
Hi Guys-
The decal sheet in AFV Club's new M40 Big Shot U.S. 155mm Gun Motor Carriage kit offers a British 1960s unidentified unit. [;-{/)


[img]http://lh4.google.com/jchinuk/RPLdCrFjABI/AAAAAAAAAMs/Xr85eTZTkJk/FP_0800.JPG?imgmax=640[/img]

[img]http://lh3.google.com/jchinuk/RPLdaxipABI/AAAAAAAAAM0/xSew1CMqYbo/FP_0812.JPG?imgmax=640[/img]

This is the British example of the M40 at Firepower in Woolwich (taken in 2002).

I understand that these vehicles (only used in small numbers) left British service in 1960, so I'm guessing they got no further than Salisbury Plain or perhaps North Germany?

There were some British modifications, which I'm still investigating.

JH
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:28 pm
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

I couldnt see the picture, so here are the ones I took this summer.





I will check to tonight to see if I took a shot of the description.

Neil
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:28 pm
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

I wonder if this unit had a NATO role with 'special weapons'? When was an atomic round developed for the 155? Could it be that these weapons were already certified to handle the speciial rounds and it was politically expediant to have some capability under British control, but there were no guns in the British arsenal that had been qualified to fire such a round?

Also at the British Artillery Museum (Ft Nelson?) down near Portsmouth they had a gun that had me baffled when I first saw it. It looked like an American 8" howitzer but the proportions didn't look right. Turns out it was a 7.2" British howitzer which could also use the gun mount that the U.S. developed for the 155 gun and 8" howitzer. Since that same gun mount was used on the M40/M43 could the 7.2 have been mounted on that platform?. When did the British use the 7.2" Howitzer, was it retired before this went into service in the postwar era?

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Roy_A_Lingle
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:55 pm
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

Hi Bob! Hi Folks!

- bsmart

I wonder if this unit had a NATO role with 'special weapons'? When was an atomic round developed for the 155? Could it be that these weapons were already certified to handle the special rounds and it was politically expediant to have some capability under British control, but there were no guns in the British arsenal that had been qualified to fire such a round?


I don't know, but I would think not. The M-40 155 was before and, I think, possible during the same time the 280 mm atomic cannons were in service. The one little book I have on 20th Century Artillery first listed nuclear projectiles with the M-109. Also, in between the M-40 and the M-109 was the M-53 155 mm SP.

Is it possible that a 155mm tactical nuclear round didn't become available until just before the M-109A0s were upgraded with the longer barrels mounted on the M-109A1s?
Per an old Jane's (1976) the ammo for the M-109 was M107 HE, M116 Smoke BE, and M118 Illuminating. The first production M-109 was completed in November 1962.

If I remember right, tactical nuc.s first became avilable for the 8 inch (203 mm) how tubes before they were downsized to 155mm. From an old Jane's (1976), the first M-110 unit stood up in early 1963.

None of the books I have listed any data on when the M-40/43s were retired. When the M-53/55 went into service and when they were retired.

My 2 cents based on very little data. Confused
Sgt, Scouts Out!

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zundappuk
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:19 pm
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

Guys,

"This is the British example of the M40 at Firepower in Woolwich (taken in 2002)."

There is another EX British Army M40 in running conditon less than 1/2 a mile from my house. Its in the IWM at Duxford.

This webpage link is to a site that has pictures of it on a rare outing in the Duxford running area.

www.armourinfocus.co.u.../index.htm

Best

David
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:45 pm
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

Hmm... The Royal Artillery Museum's description appears to indicate the British Army only used the M40 through 1955?:



Neil
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Neil_Baumgardner
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:59 pm
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

Although this page indicates it was in service until 1960:

www.geocities.com/Pent...40gmc.html

Neil
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jch_in_uk
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:52 pm
Post subject: Re: M40 Big Shot in British use, anything interesting?

I think that this page is wrong, In the book "A History of Gunnery Wing Royal School of Artillery" by Lt Col (TIG) J R Guy RA which is a privately-printed item., the dates are as follows :-

The M40 was used 1945-55 then the M44 "Cardinal" from 1955-65, then M109 1967-78 with M109A1 from then to when the book was produced in 1981.

Incidentally it means the AFV Club notes are wrong too.

JH
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