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17 pdr HE Shells
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.

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J.McGillivray
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Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: 17 pdr HE Shells
I thought that you may be interested to see a photo of 17pdr HE shells being loaded into a Canadian Firefly. The photo is NAC PA-113696 and the original caption reads: Ã¢â‚¬Å“Sherman' tanks of the 4th Canadian Armoured Division shelling German position near the Dortmund-Ems Canal, Germany, 8 April 1945.Ã¢â‚¬Â? Note the tracks used as extra armour.

mike_Duplessis
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: 17 pdr HE Shells
I hear the 17 pdr had the same complaint as the Panther, namely a notably lackluster HE shell. I suppose higher tube pressures meant thicker-walled shell bodies, which meant smaller HE filling. That was the one saving grace of the Sherman 75 and T34 76.2 guns. The shells had a bit of an oblique 'artillery' heritage. Thier AT was lackluster but at least their HE had plenty 'o bang.

bsmart
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: 17 pdr HE Shells

Someone posted the numbers back on the old board

As I remember it from best to worst it was

90mm (M36 & M26)
75mm (Sherman)

76.2 & 3" (Sherman, M10)

17pdr (Firefly)

The gaps represent my memory of the scale of difference. I'll have to see if I saved that data somewhere

It may be a bias but I have noticed that british HE shells seem to have smaller fillers than comparable American, French and German shells. I'm working from spotty sources and poor memory but that is the impression I've always had

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J.McGillivray
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Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: 17 pdr HE Shells
It is my understanding that there was more than one type of 17pdr HE shell. I downloaded the page below from another web site, however I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t remember where. One had a higher explosive content the other, however, because it used a lower propellant charge the cartridge case would not eject and had to be manually extracted, thus reducing the rate of fire.

J.McGillivray
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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:15 pm
Post subject: Re: 17 pdr HE Shells

It looks like the picture with the 17pdr HE shell is even more complicated. So far Iâ€™ve have found the following types of shells:

Shell HE Mk 1/T
Shell HE/T/HC
Shell HE/Super/HC Reduced Charge
Shell HE reduced charge with Tracer & Time Fuze.

But basically it comes down to there being two main types of 17pdr HE Shells.

The first weighted 16.9lbs and had about the same MV and trajectory as the AP shot. This was so the gunner could use the same range settings on his sights for both types of rounds. These came into use in 1943. It is claimed that these shells are inferior to the 75mm HE Shell of the Sherman because of their poor fragmentation pattern. However, it should be noted that these 17pdr Shells were intended for use against fortifications, i.e. concrete busting, and not as an anti-personnel weapon.

The second type weight 15.4lbs. It is the same HE shell as used with the British 3in 20cwt AA Gun, but fitted to the 17pdr cartridge with a reduced propellant charge. These shells were used in the indirect fire role and could be fitted with a time fuze (from the AA gun) for air bursts. (Note that for the 77mm gun on the Comet the 17pdr AP ammo was fitted to the cartridge case from the 3in 20cwt AA gun.) Below are photos of some firefly tanks being used as field artillery:

Doug_Kibbey
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Posted: Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: Re: 17 pdr HE Shells
Also from Hunnicutt, "Sherman"

J.McGillivray
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: 17 pdr HE Shells
Here are some photos I took showing the sight mounts for the 17pdr A/T gun. Note that it has mounts foe both a telescopic for direct fire and a panoramic dial sight for indirect fire. The bottom two photos show the range scales. You can see that there are scales for three types as ammunition as follows: APCBC FULL 2900 F.S. AP SV/DS 3950 F.S. HE/Mk 2 T FUZE No 244 1800 F.S.

J.McGillivray
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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: 17 pdr HE Shells
There is a lot of information concerning the 17pdr gun along with its ammunition on David Boydâ€™s site. www.wwiiequipment.com/...under.aspx

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