±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 359
Total: 359
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Photo Gallery
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Photo Gallery
07: Community Forums
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Photo Gallery
16: Home
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: CPGlang
22: Home
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Downloads
26: Home
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Home
31: Downloads
32: CPGlang
33: Your Account
34: Community Forums
35: Downloads
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: Photo Gallery
41: Community Forums
42: Home
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Home
46: Community Forums
47: Community Forums
48: Community Forums
49: Photo Gallery
50: Photo Gallery
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Downloads
55: Photo Gallery
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Home
59: Photo Gallery
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: CPGlang
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: CPGlang
70: Downloads
71: Community Forums
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Photo Gallery
76: Downloads
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Photo Gallery
80: Community Forums
81: Photo Gallery
82: Member Screenshots
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Photo Gallery
86: Community Forums
87: Community Forums
88: CPGlang
89: Photo Gallery
90: Photo Gallery
91: Community Forums
92: Downloads
93: CPGlang
94: Downloads
95: Community Forums
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: News
99: Community Forums
100: Home
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Your Account
105: Downloads
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Community Forums
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: CPGlang
112: Photo Gallery
113: Photo Gallery
114: Downloads
115: Photo Gallery
116: Home
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Photo Gallery
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Member Screenshots
123: Member Screenshots
124: Downloads
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Photo Gallery
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Home
144: Downloads
145: Downloads
146: Home
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Member Screenshots
152: CPGlang
153: Community Forums
154: Photo Gallery
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Photo Gallery
164: Photo Gallery
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Downloads
168: Photo Gallery
169: Photo Gallery
170: Photo Gallery
171: Photo Gallery
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Photo Gallery
175: Community Forums
176: Home
177: Photo Gallery
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: CPGlang
182: Photo Gallery
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: CPGlang
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Photo Gallery
191: Home
192: Photo Gallery
193: CPGlang
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Photo Gallery
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Member Screenshots
201: Photo Gallery
202: Photo Gallery
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Home
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: CPGlang
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Photo Gallery
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: Your Account
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Home
226: Photo Gallery
227: Downloads
228: Downloads
229: Photo Gallery
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Community Forums
233: Downloads
234: Statistics
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Photo Gallery
242: Community Forums
243: Home
244: Community Forums
245: Photo Gallery
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: CPGlang
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Photo Gallery
256: Community Forums
257: Photo Gallery
258: Community Forums
259: CPGlang
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Community Forums
265: Home
266: Photo Gallery
267: Photo Gallery
268: Photo Gallery
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: CPGlang
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: CPGlang
275: Downloads
276: Photo Gallery
277: Home
278: Photo Gallery
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Photo Gallery
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Downloads
289: CPGlang
290: Community Forums
291: CPGlang
292: Community Forums
293: Photo Gallery
294: Your Account
295: News
296: Community Forums
297: News Archive
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Downloads
301: News Archive
302: Community Forums
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: Photo Gallery
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Home
320: Community Forums
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Photo Gallery
325: CPGlang
326: Photo Gallery
327: Member Screenshots
328: Member Screenshots
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Photo Gallery
333: Photo Gallery
334: Downloads
335: Photo Gallery
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Photo Gallery
339: Photo Gallery
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Downloads
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Photo Gallery
351: Community Forums
352: Photo Gallery
353: Photo Gallery
354: Photo Gallery
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: CPGlang

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 4:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Ah, I have discovered a relatively simple identification cue to tell the difference between an FSED XM1 and an LRIP or later Abrams...

If the lower, rear part of the turret has a vertical "slab" (my word) - like on this one (see also Hunnicutt's Abrams p 200) - its an FSED XM1.



LRIP & later Abrams dont have that vertical slab - see this pic & Hunnicutt's Abrams p206.



So the Abrams at the Fort Hood East Gate is an FSED XM1 - one of only 11 built. However, it appears that Operational Test III (OT-III) at Fort Hood (ie 2-5 Cav, etc) used LRIP, not FSED, tanks (see Hunnicutt's Abrams, p 202-203). Although FSED Abrams were tested at Fort Bliss during OT-II...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:08 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

So I'm to assume that this is a relatively rare M1? Any one know what became of the other eleven? And I'm still curious as to what the stampings on the side skirts stood for.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:10 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Yes, its pretty rare. Its a "true" XM1. XM1s include the original XM1 competitor vehicle (the turret exists, not sure what happened to the hull), and the 11 Full-Scale Engineering Development (FSED) pilot vehicles (PV).

PV1 is in front of the Patton Museum at Fort Knox
PV4 has the Chrysler competitor turret on it for some reason & at least was in storage at TACOM in Warren, MI
PV11 was used for live-fire testing & may or may not still exist "behind the fence" at APG...

There's another "XM1" at TACOM.

The Fort Campbell "XM1" could be FSED PVs...

The APG "XM1" is probably an LRIP vehicle - these were sometimes called XM1s as well...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:28 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:00 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?


Jeff

Research, Research, Research! Also a little luck that someone has documented it in print!!!

Thank goodness for Hunnicutt's indepth work. It really helps provide a sound basis for most armor related, historical information and data. (I'm sure most on this DG will atest to...)

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Yes, but... Hunnicutt's purpose was to explain the development & fielding of a particular tank or weapon system. This means that individual pilots or prototypes (pictures, RNs, SNs, etc) are occasionally mentioned... But in general, the fates or disposition of all pilots or prototypes are not given, and the location of stampings is certainly not. That being said, they're a great reference!

But in cases like these, we need to fill in the details. Unfortunately, I dont have a good way yet to determine the PV number or SN externally yet.

Don, any chance you could poke around the Patton Museum's XM1 next time you're there?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:05 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Neil_Baumgardner
Yes, but... Hunnicutt's purpose was to explain the development & fielding of a particular tank or weapon system. This means that individual pilots or prototypes (pictures, RNs, SNs, etc) are occasionally mentioned... But in general, the fates or disposition of all pilots or prototypes are not given, and the location of stampings is certainly not. That being said, they're a great reference!

But in cases like these, we need to fill in the details. Unfortunately, I dont have a good way yet to determine the PV number or SN externally yet.

Don, any chance you could poke around the Patton Museum's XM1 next time you're there?

Neil


Cool

Did it yesterday, but a 'tad' too cold (temps in 20's) to do any real 'hunting'. No stamp tags on skirts, no obvious markings. I'll do a little more indepth snooping next time.

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:34 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

I would ask the museum directors but they cant even keep track of where their Shermans are, (seriously, I had to tell them what motor pool they were in and they still cant find a field piece). Their anxious for me to assist them but they don't want to do much for me. I think Dontos is the "key" to our research at this time. I will try and get back to the XM-1 when I get some free time and look her over again.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2066
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

Jeff,
Those stamps on that XM-1 should be ID marks for the Ballistic skirts. C/A should mean "Chobham Armor". Remember that when the M-1 was first made it was not designed with the new armor by either Chrysler or GM. It was later demonstrated to the US and was adopted for the program. From what I remember the pilot vehicles were the first to be equipped with this material. That's why the turret's appearance changed so much from the prototype. Can't bend it or shape it, had to made in slab form. The Chrysler skirts were marginal protection and served also to reduce dirt ingestion of the turbine engine

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Geoff_walden
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?


Some of the PVs had numbers stamped into the hull in various places. I recall that one of the tanks that was at TACOM had PV4 stamped into the hull. The Fort Knox example has no numbers at all, AFAIR, which leads to the question "how do we know it's PV1?" Unless museum records prove that, I don't really know.

Jeff, I'd be real interested to hear if you can find anything on that Hood tank that shows which PV it is - it is definitely a rare tank! I'd guess only about 5 or 6 of the original 11 still exist, and most of those were modified from their original configuration, due to testing improvements. An example of this is the "paddle wheel" track retainer on the sprocket. This was installed on all (I think) 11 PVs as a result of the initial OT-II test at Fort Bliss, when the tanks threw track a lot. The second part of OT-II was at Fort Knox, using the paddle wheels (and other improvements).

Other than that, this Hood PV looks pretty original, on the outside. It still has the ammo feed chute for the TC's 50-cal, the old-style MRS held on by a bunch of bolts, the original front skirts with circular recesses for the latches, etc.

As Neil mentioned, the tanks used for OT-III at Hood and later in initial fielding were the first 110 LRIP tanks, not the PVs. These were also technically XM-1s, since the tank had not yet been type-classified. I was involved in this fielding, and I do not recall ever seeing a PV at Hood at that time (I think I would have noticed, being kinda "into" the tank history at that time).

I will try to find my notes and photos from the early 80s. Honestly, I can't remember now if the LRIP tank S/Ns started with a letter, or just the number. They were all made at Lima, so maybe it was just a number without the L. But I do remember refering to L8 at that time - L8 was not fielded, but was used for various tests (it had an under-armor APU added to the left-rear sponson). I wonder whatever happened to L8 ... it had so many mods, I doubt if it was ever fielded to a unit ... not in that configuration, anyway (if anyone finds an early M1 with an odd box with louvers sticking at the back at the upper left rear, it's L8).

My notes from way back when also told where all the PVs were, at that time. Will try to dig that stuff out.

Geoff Walden
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:17 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Geoff_walden
- SFC_Jeff_Button
How do you determine which tank is 1,2,3, or so on?


Some of the PVs had numbers stamped into the hull in various places. I recall that one of the tanks that was at TACOM had PV4 stamped into the hull. The Fort Knox example has no numbers at all, AFAIR, which leads to the question "how do we know it's PV1?" Unless museum records prove that, I don't really know.


Geoff, do you remember where PV4 was stamped?

As for the Knox example, we at least know its a PV since it has the vertical "slab" on the rear turret - maybe Don can chime in as to what the museum records say... And I thought I had found "something" on it that proved it was PV1...





Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- Geoff_walden

My notes from way back when also told where all the PVs were, at that time. Will try to dig that stuff out.


Geoff, if you could find that list it could be a goldmine! Next though, since the Chrysler turret got put on PV4.... What happened to the original chassis?

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:56 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

I guess a return trip to the "PV" M1 is in order for tomorrow! I'll climb up on it and all over the top of the hull and turret. Any mark I find I will photograph. I will also re-stick my arm inside and try to get a few different shots of the interior.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:08 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
I guess a return trip to the "PV" M1 is in order for tomorrow! I'll climb up on it and all over the top of the hull and turret. Any mark I find I will photograph. I will also re-stick my arm inside and try to get a few different shots of the interior.


Jeff

There is usually a data plate on the interior turret wall at the TC's position. If you can get a shot of it (if one is there) you might be able to get some information.

I'll dig around and see if I can find an image of its location, and post it a little later.

Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:43 am
Post subject: Re: Dontos, 1st Cav Museum M1...

- SFC_Jeff_Button
I guess a return trip to the "PV" M1 is in order for tomorrow! I'll climb up on it and all over the top of the hull and turret. Any mark I find I will photograph. I will also re-stick my arm inside and try to get a few different shots of the interior.


Here is a reference image for the turret data plate.



Don

_________________
"Gonna hold my breath until Armor returns home..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 5 of 6
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum