±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 394
Total: 394
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Your Account
07: Home
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Home
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Home
17: Home
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Home
21: Home
22: Community Forums
23: Home
24: Photo Gallery
25: Community Forums
26: News Archive
27: Community Forums
28: Member Screenshots
29: Home
30: Community Forums
31: Member Screenshots
32: Home
33: Community Forums
34: Home
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Home
43: Community Forums
44: Your Account
45: Community Forums
46: Home
47: Home
48: Community Forums
49: News
50: Community Forums
51: Photo Gallery
52: Community Forums
53: Downloads
54: Community Forums
55: Photo Gallery
56: Member Screenshots
57: Member Screenshots
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Downloads
63: Home
64: Home
65: Community Forums
66: Home
67: News Archive
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Downloads
71: Home
72: Community Forums
73: Home
74: Photo Gallery
75: Home
76: Community Forums
77: Member Screenshots
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Search
81: Home
82: Home
83: Photo Gallery
84: Home
85: Home
86: Home
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Home
90: Home
91: Home
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Community Forums
96: News Archive
97: Home
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Photo Gallery
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Home
107: Photo Gallery
108: Community Forums
109: News Archive
110: Community Forums
111: Photo Gallery
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Home
119: Photo Gallery
120: Photo Gallery
121: Downloads
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Home
129: Downloads
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Home
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Home
141: Member Screenshots
142: Community Forums
143: Member Screenshots
144: Home
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Member Screenshots
148: Member Screenshots
149: News Archive
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Home
153: Community Forums
154: Downloads
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Home
158: Photo Gallery
159: Home
160: Home
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Home
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Home
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Home
172: Photo Gallery
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Home
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Member Screenshots
179: Community Forums
180: Home
181: Home
182: Home
183: Photo Gallery
184: Home
185: Community Forums
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Home
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Home
195: Home
196: Community Forums
197: Photo Gallery
198: Community Forums
199: Home
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Member Screenshots
203: Community Forums
204: Photo Gallery
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: Home
208: Members List
209: Member Screenshots
210: Home
211: Home
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Member Screenshots
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: News Archive
222: Member Screenshots
223: Community Forums
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Home
227: Member Screenshots
228: Home
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Home
232: Home
233: Member Screenshots
234: Photo Gallery
235: Photo Gallery
236: Community Forums
237: Home
238: Community Forums
239: Home
240: Community Forums
241: Community Forums
242: Member Screenshots
243: Home
244: Home
245: Home
246: Home
247: Home
248: Home
249: Home
250: Home
251: Community Forums
252: Home
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Home
256: Home
257: Home
258: Home
259: Community Forums
260: Home
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Home
264: Home
265: Home
266: Community Forums
267: Photo Gallery
268: Home
269: Home
270: Home
271: Photo Gallery
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Photo Gallery
275: Home
276: Photo Gallery
277: Photo Gallery
278: Downloads
279: Photo Gallery
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Photo Gallery
287: Community Forums
288: Home
289: Downloads
290: Community Forums
291: Downloads
292: Downloads
293: Member Screenshots
294: Community Forums
295: Home
296: Photo Gallery
297: Home
298: News Archive
299: Community Forums
300: Home
301: Your Account
302: Home
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: Home
307: Community Forums
308: Home
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Home
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: Home
317: Home
318: Home
319: Community Forums
320: Statistics
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Home
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Home
332: Home
333: Community Forums
334: Home
335: Home
336: Home
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Photo Gallery
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Home
347: Community Forums
348: Home
349: Downloads
350: Community Forums
351: Home
352: Home
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Member Screenshots
356: Photo Gallery
357: Home
358: Downloads
359: Home
360: Home
361: Home
362: Community Forums
363: Home
364: Community Forums
365: Home
366: Home
367: Member Screenshots
368: Community Forums
369: Photo Gallery
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Photo Gallery
374: Member Screenshots
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Home
382: Home
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Photo Gallery
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Home
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Home
394: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:28 pm
Post subject: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

This M47 sits at the end of the row of M60's and M48 at the 1st CAV museum. Easy to read serial number of 8537, USA number 3C-168736. My son Jeffrey found the front two floor hatches missing and we were able to snap some interior shots, esspecially of the data plate. The data plate had no manufacture date which suprised me. Both the M47 at Ft Irwin were Italian models that made there way back to the states. They were serials 1560 which had a Transmission overhaul data plate of 6/5/68 in Italy. And there was serial number 1022 which was overhauled in Cittadella Italy.
A few numbers I have on M47's are as follows;
- The Italians used M47's from1954 through 1989, 35years!!!
- M47 was the last tank to utilize a 5 man crew.
- M47 cost $129,000 each to produce.
- 8,576 M47's were built, (5481 at Detroit Tank Arsenal and 3095 at American Locomotive)
- Spain rebuilt 22 M47's into M47ER3's from 1993-96 and they are in service today.
- The M47 entered military service in 1952 but was being replaced by the M48 by 1953 and was being exported widely to NATO countries such as Belgium, France, Germany, and Austria.
- The M47 is still in some use with Greece, Turkey, Republic of Korea, Jordan, Iran, Pakistan, and Yugoslavia, (how up to date this is, I do not know).










_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Maple_Leaf_Eh
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

" A few numbers I have on M47's are as follows;
- The Italians used M47's from1954 through 1989, 35years!!!
- M47 was the last tank to utilize a 5 man crew.
- M47 cost $129,000 each to produce.
- 8,576 M47's were built, (5481 at Detroit Tank Arsenal and 3095 at American Locomotive)
- Spain rebuilt 22 M47's into M47ER3's from 1993-96 and they are in service today.
- The M47 entered military service in 1952 but was being replaced by the M48 by 1953 and was being exported widely to NATO countries such as Belgium, France, Germany, and Austria.
- The M47 is still in some use with Greece, Turkey, Republic of Korea, Jordan, Iran, Pakistan, and Yugoslavia, (how up to date this is, I do not know)."

What is so special about the M47 that it would be so longlived? We know the T54/55 series persists by virtue of its numerical superiority and dog$hit simple mechanics. We also know the Danish and Norwegians liked the Walker Bulldog family because of its small size and utility on narrow roads and small islands.
Back to top
View user's profile
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2069
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

OK,
I don't have my references with me but I'm pretty damn sure no M47 ever made it to Korea during the war (M26's and M46's), and from what I remember the 90mm gun on the M47 had a changed chamber that allowed for firing of the older 90mm rounds of the M26 and M46 but actually fired a higher velocity round. Looking at this tank I doubt very seriously it had been upgraded to a Diesel, all the M47's I've seen with 1790 diesels had the low IR rear grills like the M48A2/3/5's and M60's. This one is still equipped with the gas mufflers coming from the top deck, it would be a hell of a plumbing job to route the exhaust from a 1790 diesel that way. Jeff, you need to straighten this museum out. It's better to put out no information than wrong.

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:05 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Hi Folks!

- SFC_Jeff_Button

This M47 sits at the end of the row of M60's and M48 at the 1st CAV museum.



I have to agree with Joe D. That plaque has some very questionable claims on it.

The engine up grade. It is my understanding the M47s that were upgrade to the AVDS-1790-2A diesel engine had a top engine deck that look's like a M48A3, air filter boxes on the fenders and grill doors on the top half of the rear hull.

As for the Korean War, I have never heard of the M47 making it over there for the war. M46s, yes, M47s no. I wonder if they have the dates off and that unit used M47s post war. Maybe that is were the M47s the South Koran Army used (post war) came from?

Jeff, I think that museum needs a lot of help.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Hi Folks!


This Spanish M47 has the diesel engine up grade. You can see the air filter boxes on the fenders and just make out some of the top engine deck about those boxes.


Just drawing, but it is the best I have of an engine upgrade.


This is the only photo I recall ever seeing of a South Korean Army M47. Could it be they never used the gun version?

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

Top two photos are from Steven J Zaloga's "The M47 & M48 Patton Tanks" by Osprey Vanguard 29, ISBN 0 85045 466 2, Copyright 1980.

Botton photo from Jane;s World Armoured Fighting Vehicles by Christopher F. Foss, ISBN 0 312 44047 2, copyright 1976.

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:43 pm
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Nothing I find on the Ferreamole site seems to indicate that the Italian M47's were ever converted to diesel. You can view their tech manuals and pics below:

www.ferreamole.it/imag...47_01m.htm

"L'M47 era dotato di un motore Continental AV-1790-5B alimentato a benzina con 12 cilindri a V da 29.361 cc., raffreddato ad aria ed erogante una potenza massima di 810 Hp a 2.800 giri/min. Nonostante la potenza fosse adeguata al peso del mezzo, questo motore era il vero tallone d'Achille del carro a causa del suo consumo spaventoso. Si pensi che pur avendo una riserva di 1.055 litri di benzina, l'autonomia su strada era di soli 128 Km. Ciò significava un consumo di oltre 8 litri/Km. Il motore era accoppiato ad una trasmissione automatica Cross-Drive (così definita perchè montata trasversalmente nel vano motore) CD-854-4 con due marce avanti ed una indietro. Come si vede dalle foto, motore e trasmissione erano stabilmente uniti in modo da poter essere rimossi contemporaneamente, facilitando così le operazioni di manutenzione."

www.ferreamole.it/imag..._01pic.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:27 am
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

I spoke with the 1st CAV museum assistant today and explained that the M47 wasn't a diesel conversion. He look at me rather blandly and said many of the plaques didn't reflect correct information. He then followed that up by telling me I would probably find an M151 jeep labeled as having served in the Korean War if I looked close enough. So you can see the amazing folks that run the museum don't seem to care a great deal, at least at 1st CAV.
These pictures are of the 4th ID M47, serial number 483, USA number 370675. There is a foriegn data plate on the back as well, Italian? last number of tha date appears to be 67?





_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:04 am
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Its a disgrace that ANYONE working in a HISTORICAL MUSEUM (whether a volunteer or PAID STAFF) to openly express such an unprofessional suggestion.

Data plates being inaccurate are not uncommon but to make such suggestions and then to show utter disinterest!!!!

W.T.F!!!!
NOT ACCEPTABLE!!
(member 1st CAV Association, & 2nd generation 'First Team' veteran)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
SFC_Jeff_Button
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1311
Location: Ft Hood, TX
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:18 am
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Sorry Don,
As I typed that last post, I just knew I'd hit a cord with you and I didn't mean to but I had to tell it like it was. The actual director, Mr. Draper has had medical issues as of late and wasn't around. I've onlt recieved brief e-mail traffic from him via my Ft Hood e-mail account. He seems interested in my research but I've yet to meet him in person. I was actually suprised by the 4th ID museum directors knowledge on armor, She, (Celia Stratton) went on about armor, spouting their nomenclatures like an expert. She was very pleasent and basically gave me access to whatever I wanted armor wise for research.
I wish I worked in a military museum. I doubt that will ever happen without some sort of related degree, but I think I'd make a good contribution. I'm not bragging, but doing something you truely enjoy makes the job just so much more enjoyable. I envy you and where you are, believe me! I look forward to the day when we meet.

_________________
SFC Jeff Button "High Angle Hell"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:38 am
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

- SFC_Jeff_Button
Sorry Don,
As I typed that last post, I just knew I'd hit a cord with you and I didn't mean to but I had to tell it like it was. The actual director, Mr. Draper has had medical issues as of late and wasn't around. I've onlt recieved brief e-mail traffic from him via my Ft Hood e-mail account. He seems interested in my research but I've yet to meet him in person. I was actually suprised by the 4th ID museum directors knowledge on armor, She, (Celia Stratton) went on about armor, spouting their nomenclatures like an expert. She was very pleasent and basically gave me access to whatever I wanted armor wise for research.
I wish I worked in a military museum. I doubt that will ever happen without some sort of related degree, but I think I'd make a good contribution. I'm not bragging, but doing something you truely enjoy makes the job just so much more enjoyable. I envy you and where you are, believe me! I look forward to the day when we meet.


okay,....okay. Got it. Apologies for the rant. Just pisses me off when historical instituations allow such cavilier attitudes. It blurs peoples perceptions of the institution. Total BS in my book.

Switching to 'Radio-Listening-Silence' now...
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:10 am
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Hi Guys!

- Dontos
- SFC_Jeff_Button
Sorry Don,
As I typed that last post, I just knew I'd hit a cord with you and I didn't mean to but I had to tell it like it was. The actual director, Mr. Draper has had medical issues as of late and wasn't around. I've onlt recieved brief e-mail traffic from him via my Ft Hood e-mail account. He seems interested in my research but I've yet to meet him in person. I was actually suprised by the 4th ID museum directors knowledge on armor, She, (Celia Stratton) went on about armor, spouting their nomenclatures like an expert. She was very pleasent and basically gave me access to whatever I wanted armor wise for research.
I wish I worked in a military museum. I doubt that will ever happen without some sort of related degree, but I think I'd make a good contribution. I'm not bragging, but doing something you truely enjoy makes the job just so much more enjoyable. I envy you and where you are, believe me! I look forward to the day when we meet.


okay,....okay. Got it. Apologies for the rant. Just pisses me off when historical instituations allow such cavilier attitudes. It blurs peoples perceptions of the institution. Total BS in my book.

Switching to 'Radio-Listening-Silence' now...
Don


I totally agree with you Don. As you say "Total BS"
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:06 am
Post subject: Re: Spain M47 at Ft Hood.....

Now for a little defense of the guy

It's hard to say how many times I have been called on to defend some detail at Aberdeen by someone who thinks he has found a significant mistake. Whether it is the 'Why can't you take better care of these tanks' to 'you painted that tank the wrong color it should be 1/2 a shade darker' There have even been people argue with Dr Atwater about how Leopold (Anzio Annie) is painted and he has a letter from the ex gun commander describing the paint job! When the old metal signs were mounted near the tanks there were some with glaring errors.

I would try to listen to each persons comments and explain (as best I knew) why what they saw was the way it was. For bad info on the signs sometimes the answer was that we knew there was an error and they were trying to get knew signs that would hold up better (The metal ones were almost unreadable, but it seemed like any mistake was still perfectly clear). But occasionally I would have a bad day and someone would get a perfunctery 'yes we know that' answer or what I thought was a tongue in cheek 'If you think thats bad you should see ????'

Now if I could get that way and only have to put up with it on the occasinal times I choose to go up there I can sympathize with someone who gets the same thing day after day. It doesn't excuse it but I guess I'm hoping that you caught him at the end of a bad day and that he didn't intend to sound as cavalier as he did.

As far as wanting to work at a museum - You're making the first step make contacts and volunteer. Use the opportunity to learn more about it from there side. Offer to present what you learn to staff and patrons, offer to give tours. One advantage to volunteering is you can stop any time you want if you decide it isn't your thing. If the museums there are anything like Aberdeen they have most of their visitors 9tour groups, boy scouts, etc) when they are least available to handle it (weekends) That is how I moved from just 'hanging out' looking at the tanks at Aberdeen to giving tours. They needed help with groups on weekends. Who knows you may end up being our 'inside guy' down there soon

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum