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Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:57 pm
Post subject: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

This was recently posted in the "souvenirs" section of my favorite website and homepage, the VHPAmuseum. I can't identify the type of tank from this, but maybe someone here can and we can amplify the caption, which I could have done with reliable input. The image can be accessed here:

(I'm not going to hotlink it and ask that you don't and steal John's bandwidth, he's a good friend and hosts my stuff over there...just click the link to see it)

www.vhpamuseum.org/sou...tuff-6.jpg

The caption reads:

"This data plate, No. 701C42, was taken from a Chinese tank destroyed ne ar Hue, Vietnam during the Spring Offensive of 1972. This tank was destroyed by a helicopter launched TOW missile. I think it was the 2nd combat aerial TOW team which was attached to the 11th combat aviation group out of DaNang. I believe they stayed with a cav unit, on Tan Mi island or with a cav unit in Phu Bai, maybe the 9th or 17th cav. These TOW ships were not AH1G COBRAS they were Hueys, possibly C models or D models and flew with a COBRA team for cover. "

As I'd been stationed and worked that area until January '72 when I left to join Roy with the 2/11th, I missed that bit of excitement by about 60-90 days, which is just as well since we'd likely have been over-run in that location. Rolling Eyes

Any thoughts on what type this was? Whose kanji is good enough to read this?

I'm pretty sure the unit involved wasn't 17th Cav as I was 17th Cav and know what we operated and TOW wasn't amongst our stuff, even on C Troop birds over at Phu Bai where we all were by early '72...and all 17th Cav had gone by the time of this action I feel sure.
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Jens_O_Mehner
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

Well,

the after-action reports only mention M41s (captured examples) and T-54s as the types of tanks killed by the aerial TOW teams (flying UH-1Bs), so it's probably the latter, although I can't remember if the Chinese still built straight T-54s at that time or if those were already Type 59s. The 7.6 visible on the data plate had me leaning towards a PT-76, but those are not among the victims listed in the reports. Cool

Cheers,

Jens O.

furiously trying to get his scanner back online
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 9:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

Thanks, Jens...
What we had remaining in-country was one troop of 17th Cav (OH-6's, UH-1D's and AH-1G Cobras) with some ancillary units assigned, which included A Bty, 4/77th ARA (all Cobra's), none with TOW capacity, I believe. I'm inclined to think this was flying out of Da Nang, but I'll do some checking around.

I have some Chinese contacts and other who read the more fundamental type of kanji typical of the PRC, so I'll see if that can shed some light on this when I get a chance.
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JimWeb
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 10:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

- Jens_O_Mehner
Well,

the after-action reports only mention M41s (captured examples) and T-54s as the types of tanks killed by the aerial TOW teams (flying UH-1Bs), so it's probably the latter, although I can't remember if the Chinese still built straight T-54s at that time or if those were already Type 59s. The 7.6 visible on the data plate had me leaning towards a PT-76, but those are not among the victims listed in the reports. Cool


It looks like a data plate for a Type 60.

Cool

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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

Looking into this, it would seem likely to have been May '72 or later, as the earliest time I can find documented for TOW use is out of Pleiku with the 1st and 2nd TOW Detachments (the "2nd combat aerial TOW team") using the BGM-71's on UH-1B models. Elements of the 2nd may have come north to support a rapidly deteriorating situation. All Cobra engagements that involved tanks used either HEAT or HEDP rockets, not TOW (just as suggested by the original caption).

Looks like the 2nd Tow Detachment may have been kept "on the move" by a fluid situation and the advance of NVA armor down QL-1.

I have my issues of Army Aviation Digest with the serialized "Armed Helicopter Story", but I think that stops just as this was occuring...ending about New Year's '72...talk about "news in the making"....
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armyjunk2
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

Ok if i have someone translate that label?
the other site i go to people speak everything, someone might translate it
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:45 pm
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

- armyjunk2
Ok if i have someone translate that label?
the other site i go to people speak everything, someone might translate it


By all means, take a shot!
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armyjunk2
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:08 am
Post subject:

I DELETED THIS


Last edited by armyjunk2 on Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Maple_Leaf_Eh
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:13 am
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

Let's hope their Chinese is better than their Japanese.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:17 am
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

I have a medical/business associate from PRC I can email it to...he was even at our company today, but it was before I had seen this. I'll send it to him tomorrow.
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famo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:08 am
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

I can try it,but wait until i look for some glossary.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:48 am
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

My mans says:

"It looks like from a Chinese manufacturer. But it is only an electronic fire control panel for machine gun and canon. It is an instruction how to operate the panel in order to fire the weapon. There is no indication of what type of tank."

He has offered a more complete tranlation, and I've taken him up on it...so we'll see. If anyone has something to offer, we'll surely listen. My contact did time in PRC armed forces, so I do tend to take his word for it.
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famo
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:05 am
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

Here is

DCC Control Panel
7.6 Kg

The manual valve in powercylinder should be rotate to Zd position
before turn on switcher CZ

Stabilizer
Switch On
Before turn the lever in the elevating mechanism to the lower position,wait
1.5~2 minutes after the switcher CZ turned on
Switch Off
Turn the lever in the elevating mechanism to the upper position(The handwheel should be rotataed until the lever turn to the upper position If the lever not in the upper position),then switch off the the switcher CZ

Electric Control Device
Use the switcher SP to turn on or turn off the device.The device should not
be turned on if no need

Fire the weapon
Machinegun trigger is in the handlever on the left corner of controlpanel. Gun trigger is in the handlever on the right corner of controlpanel.
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Doug_Kibbey
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:14 am
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

Excellent! Thank you!

Now, do we have any idea what vehicle that makes this?
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bsmart
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Data plate from ChiCom tank destroyed near Hue '72.

- Doug_Kibbey
Looking into this, it would seem likely to have been May '72 or later, as the earliest time I can find documented for TOW use is out of Pleiku with the 1st and 2nd TOW Detachments (the "2nd combat aerial TOW team") using the BGM-71's on UH-1B models. Elements of the 2nd may have come north to support a rapidly deteriorating situation. All Cobra engagements that involved tanks used either HEAT or HEDP rockets, not TOW (just as suggested by the original caption).

Looks like the 2nd Tow Detachment may have been kept "on the move" by a fluid situation and the advance of NVA armor down QL-1.

I have my issues of Army Aviation Digest with the serialized "Armed Helicopter Story", but I think that stops just as this was occuring...ending about New Year's '72...talk about "news in the making"....


In the fall of '72 I was at VMI. I remember us watching 'hot off the press' footage from the TOW test detachment in Vietnam of some of their missions. If I remember correctly the films were handcarried down by a member of the test evaluation team who narrated them and answered questions. (We used to get a fair number of such visits, often on a Friday when there was a home football game on Saturday. Ther would sometimes be 2 or 3 UH-1s sitting on the Parade Field or on a field behind the barracks where alumni had flown 'cross country hours' to come in. sometimes there would be a presentation of some kind for those who wanted to attend of some dog and pony show that was making the rounds in official circles) anyway I remember most of the missions being against abandoned South Vietnamese vehicles to keep them from falling into enemy hands. There were a few shots of missions against NVA armor and some against fixed positions. I remember a couple against machineguns that had been placed in Water towers (some of which were concrete and pretty 'hard') Yea we were young and gung ho and ate the stuff up.

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