±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 596
Total: 596
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Member Screenshots
02: Community Forums
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Home
08: Downloads
09: Your Account
10: Member Screenshots
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: News
14: Downloads
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Home
18: Home
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Your Account
24: Home
25: Member Screenshots
26: Community Forums
27: Photo Gallery
28: Photo Gallery
29: Photo Gallery
30: Photo Gallery
31: Home
32: Downloads
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Community Forums
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Member Screenshots
39: Community Forums
40: Home
41: Downloads
42: Home
43: Photo Gallery
44: Member Screenshots
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Member Screenshots
52: Community Forums
53: Photo Gallery
54: Community Forums
55: Your Account
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Statistics
63: Home
64: Downloads
65: Community Forums
66: Home
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: Photo Gallery
70: Community Forums
71: Home
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: News
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Community Forums
78: Member Screenshots
79: Community Forums
80: Home
81: Photo Gallery
82: Community Forums
83: Home
84: Photo Gallery
85: Community Forums
86: Member Screenshots
87: Community Forums
88: Community Forums
89: Your Account
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Home
94: Photo Gallery
95: Home
96: Your Account
97: Community Forums
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Photo Gallery
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Photo Gallery
106: Community Forums
107: Member Screenshots
108: Downloads
109: Photo Gallery
110: Your Account
111: Statistics
112: Home
113: Home
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: Your Account
117: Community Forums
118: Home
119: Photo Gallery
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Home
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Downloads
129: Member Screenshots
130: Community Forums
131: Photo Gallery
132: Statistics
133: Your Account
134: Home
135: Home
136: News Archive
137: Community Forums
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Home
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Home
149: News Archive
150: Community Forums
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: News
154: Downloads
155: Home
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: News Archive
159: Photo Gallery
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Home
165: Downloads
166: Community Forums
167: Home
168: Downloads
169: Statistics
170: Home
171: Home
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Community Forums
175: Home
176: Home
177: Home
178: Community Forums
179: News Archive
180: Photo Gallery
181: Community Forums
182: Photo Gallery
183: Community Forums
184: Photo Gallery
185: Photo Gallery
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Photo Gallery
189: Photo Gallery
190: Community Forums
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Home
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Photo Gallery
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Home
204: Home
205: Your Account
206: Home
207: Photo Gallery
208: Photo Gallery
209: Member Screenshots
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Member Screenshots
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Home
216: Community Forums
217: Community Forums
218: Home
219: Community Forums
220: News
221: Downloads
222: Downloads
223: Member Screenshots
224: Community Forums
225: Statistics
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Photo Gallery
230: Home
231: Member Screenshots
232: Home
233: News Archive
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Photo Gallery
240: Community Forums
241: Member Screenshots
242: Home
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Community Forums
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Home
250: Statistics
251: Home
252: Community Forums
253: Downloads
254: Statistics
255: Community Forums
256: Photo Gallery
257: Photo Gallery
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Downloads
261: Home
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Your Account
267: Downloads
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Home
272: Community Forums
273: Home
274: Photo Gallery
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Home
283: Photo Gallery
284: Community Forums
285: Home
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Community Forums
289: Home
290: Community Forums
291: Downloads
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Home
298: Home
299: Downloads
300: Community Forums
301: Photo Gallery
302: Member Screenshots
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: News Archive
306: Member Screenshots
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Home
311: Downloads
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Community Forums
316: News Archive
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Photo Gallery
322: Community Forums
323: Photo Gallery
324: Community Forums
325: Statistics
326: Photo Gallery
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Community Forums
330: Photo Gallery
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Home
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Community Forums
344: Photo Gallery
345: Photo Gallery
346: Downloads
347: Home
348: Community Forums
349: Photo Gallery
350: Home
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Photo Gallery
354: Member Screenshots
355: Community Forums
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Home
360: Home
361: Home
362: News Archive
363: Member Screenshots
364: Downloads
365: Community Forums
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: Your Account
369: Statistics
370: Community Forums
371: Statistics
372: Community Forums
373: Member Screenshots
374: Community Forums
375: Member Screenshots
376: Home
377: Photo Gallery
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Photo Gallery
381: Downloads
382: Community Forums
383: Downloads
384: Community Forums
385: Photo Gallery
386: Community Forums
387: Member Screenshots
388: Home
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: Home
392: News
393: Community Forums
394: Photo Gallery
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Photo Gallery
399: Community Forums
400: Photo Gallery
401: Community Forums
402: Home
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Member Screenshots
406: Member Screenshots
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Home
410: Community Forums
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Home
420: Downloads
421: Downloads
422: Photo Gallery
423: Community Forums
424: Home
425: Home
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Photo Gallery
429: Home
430: Treasury
431: Community Forums
432: Home
433: Community Forums
434: Community Forums
435: Photo Gallery
436: Photo Gallery
437: News Archive
438: Home
439: Home
440: Home
441: Community Forums
442: Downloads
443: Home
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: Your Account
447: Community Forums
448: Home
449: Photo Gallery
450: Home
451: Community Forums
452: Photo Gallery
453: Home
454: Community Forums
455: Home
456: Photo Gallery
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Home
461: Downloads
462: News Archive
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Community Forums
470: Home
471: Community Forums
472: Photo Gallery
473: Community Forums
474: Member Screenshots
475: Photo Gallery
476: Home
477: Community Forums
478: Your Account
479: Community Forums
480: Home
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Downloads
486: Community Forums
487: Photo Gallery
488: Statistics
489: Home
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Community Forums
496: Home
497: Photo Gallery
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Photo Gallery
503: Home
504: Member Screenshots
505: Member Screenshots
506: Community Forums
507: Member Screenshots
508: Community Forums
509: Photo Gallery
510: Community Forums
511: Community Forums
512: Downloads
513: News Archive
514: Community Forums
515: Photo Gallery
516: Photo Gallery
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Member Screenshots
522: Community Forums
523: Member Screenshots
524: Photo Gallery
525: Community Forums
526: Photo Gallery
527: Community Forums
528: Photo Gallery
529: Member Screenshots
530: Community Forums
531: Community Forums
532: Home
533: News Archive
534: Community Forums
535: Photo Gallery
536: Community Forums
537: Downloads
538: Home
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Home
542: Community Forums
543: Home
544: Community Forums
545: Home
546: Home
547: Community Forums
548: Photo Gallery
549: Community Forums
550: Your Account
551: Photo Gallery
552: Community Forums
553: Home
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Downloads
558: Community Forums
559: Home
560: Community Forums
561: Downloads
562: Community Forums
563: Home
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Photo Gallery
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Member Screenshots
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Photo Gallery
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Photo Gallery
584: Statistics
585: Member Screenshots
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Member Screenshots
589: Community Forums
590: Photo Gallery
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Home
595: Home
596: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Thermal Shrouds Question
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:20 am
Post subject: Thermal Shrouds Question

Exactly what are main gun thermal shrouds for? I was told that it's so the heat from the gun tube does not interfere with the thermal sights but I think shrouds were around before thermal sites.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

I was told by a tanker friend that it was to keep the barrel as temperature stable as possible to enhance accuracy. don't know if he was correct or not

Jeff Lewis
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Piney,

I've heard that too. Was told that the sun beating down on the tube makes it hotter on top than on bottom. Shroud makes the temp even all the way around.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2067
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi 'Weed, Jeff.
Was told that the sun beating down on the tube makes it hotter on top than on bottom. Shroud makes the temp even all the way around.


Yes, the shroud allows the tube to maintain a relative even temperature all around thus causing the metal to expand and contract evenly. This reduces boresight loss by tube bending and increases accuracy from round to round. Prior to thermal shrouds, we would boresight first thing in the morning and then re boresight at least 2 to 3 more times during the day based on how warm it was and how hard the sun beat on us. During firing the tube also heats up and the shroud reduces the bending of the tube by about 50% IAW the "Book". One dirty trick on the A1's was to pour water over or urinate on another crews tube without them looking during gunnery so they would loose their boresight Twisted Evil . The Master Gunner School actually demonstrated this phenomena by pouring water down the tube from the breech after firing a few rounds. Then they do an MRS update (That little device on the end of the M1 Tubes) and fire another to demostrate that it will correct for boresight loss. The longer a gun tube is, the more important the shroud becomes. Very important for long range gunnery.

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

The thermal shroud also contains the heat around the gun tube. This way the thermal radiation (heat) eminating from the gun tube does not distort the image on the thermal sight. This only effects tanks with thermal sights though.

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Mark! Hi Folks!

I remember prior to the 1973 Middle East War, there was a chart that listed the max effective range of US Army Anti-tank weapons.

While the TOW was listed as 3,000 meters, the 105mm on our M60 MBTs was only listed as effective out to 1,200 meters. One thing that always confuzed me for the longest time was that the M60 tank was capable of 4,400 meters when it rolled out of the factory doors.

That was also during the time when there was a lot of talk about ATGMs being better than MBTs because they could hit targets at greater ranges than a tank and cost less.

When the 'lessons learned' came out after the 1973 war, the US Army was very surpised that IDF tankers had a very high number of hits on targets at greater than 1,200 meters with 105mm cannon.

A number of things where changed with US MBTs and tanker training. The three things I remember most was the AOS was installed on the M60s, the thermal shround was added (something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain) and the Master Gunner Program was started.

Some very old history, as I remember it.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:20 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

- Roy_A_Lingle

A number of things where changed with US MBTs and tanker training. The three things I remember most was the AOS was installed on the M60s, the thermal shround was added (something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain) and the Master Gunner Program was started.


Excuse me we had them on Centurions as well!

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:30 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb
- Roy_A_Lingle

....something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain.....


Excuse me we had them on Centurions as well!

Cool


If I remember right, the British Chieftain was the FIRST MBT to use thermal shrouds. In time just about everyone who used a 105mm gun tube based on the L7 design added shrouds. I remember a lot of Centurion photos with tubes that only had paint on them.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:51 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb
- Roy_A_Lingle

....something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain.....


Excuse me we had them on Centurions as well!

Cool


If I remember right, the British Chieftain was the FIRST MBT to use thermal shrouds. In time just about everyone who used a 105mm gun tube based on the L7 design added shrouds. I remember a lot of Centurion photos with tubes that only had paint on them.

Sgt, Scouts Out!



And I can remember a lot of M60 tubes without them... BUT the thermal jacket was first issued on the Centurion Mk 10 - four years before Chieftain entered service. All marks after that had them issued but not neccessarily fitted.

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2067
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Roy, Jim,
What's interesting is the Thermal shroud did not get fielded with US Tanks until the M60A3 came around. Kinda funny since everyone else had them long before. I think it had a lot to do with the whole package upgrade to A3. Putting a shroud on an A1 would help you with maintaining your boresight but besides that not much else. I can understand why you would need one on the Cheiftain, just look at the length of the tube.
Maximum effective range on the A1's was officially 1800 meters. The FCS could make firing solutions out to 4400 but to be able to consistently hit (98% excluding Gunner error) 1800 was it. The A3 would also calculate solutions out to 4400 but it's MAX was 3000 meters with the same gun. Amazing what a modern FCS can do. Some of the things it compensated for that the A1 didn't were Air Density (Elevation and Air Temp), Crosswind, Cant, Ammo Temp, and a consistent accurate Rangefinder good for+/- 5 meters.
About the Master Gunner Program, Yes, it started to make a big difference. But then you had to get larger CVC helmets when their heads swelled up Mr. Green

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Didn't i read somewhere that Merkava has (had) a bit of a problem in regard to thermal imaging distortion. Basically, you're out in the hot desert in a big steel box with the engine compartment between you an the target. Those 'heat ripples' off the hot engine deck make the setup less than ideal.

okay, I may be all wet on this. This may be a problem recounted from the '82 Lebanon war (25 years ago!) for all I know!
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:53 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Mike! Hi Folks!

- mike_Duplessis
Didn't i read somewhere that Merkava has (had) a bit of a problem in regard to thermal imaging distortion. Basically, you're out in the hot desert in a big steel box with the engine compartment between you an the target. Those 'heat ripples' off the hot engine deck make the setup less than ideal.


I don't know about the Merkava, but that sounds possible to me. In my current job, one of things I do is use thermal cameras. When the cameras were new, heat from near by street lights didn't bother them. But as the cameras aged, nearby heat sources start interfearing with them and the picture quality goes to pot when the camera is pointed in the direction of a street light.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb

....the thermal jacket was first issued on the Centurion Mk 10 - four years before Chieftain entered service.
Cool


I didn't know that, possible because I am not British, I just remember the Chieftain as the first tank I ever saw with thermal shrouds and always wondered why the US didn't also use them.

Thanks for the update Jim.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JG300-Ascout
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 05, 2005
Posts: 6257
Location: Cyberspace
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:21 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

...and to add to the list of mysteries like "Green Tigers in Africa" and "Pink Panthers in Vietnam" there's always the......









...wait for it......








"Thermal Shroud of Turin"


(Thank ya' very much....)

_________________
"All facts go to clearly prove that Shades is a thrice-cursed traitor & mentally deranged person steeped in inveterate enmity toward mankind"
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum