±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 533
Total: 533
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Photo Gallery
02: Home
03: Home
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Home
07: Home
08: Home
09: Home
10: Home
11: Home
12: Home
13: Home
14: Home
15: Home
16: Home
17: Home
18: Home
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Home
22: Community Forums
23: Member Screenshots
24: Home
25: Home
26: Home
27: Home
28: Community Forums
29: Photo Gallery
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Home
33: Photo Gallery
34: Photo Gallery
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Downloads
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Home
41: Community Forums
42: Home
43: Community Forums
44: Home
45: Home
46: Home
47: Home
48: Home
49: Home
50: Statistics
51: Photo Gallery
52: Home
53: Photo Gallery
54: Statistics
55: Home
56: Home
57: Home
58: Home
59: Home
60: Home
61: Photo Gallery
62: Community Forums
63: Photo Gallery
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Home
67: Home
68: Photo Gallery
69: Home
70: Home
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Photo Gallery
74: Home
75: Home
76: Home
77: Home
78: Home
79: Home
80: Home
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: Home
84: News
85: Home
86: Home
87: Home
88: Community Forums
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Home
92: Home
93: Home
94: Community Forums
95: Member Screenshots
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Home
99: Home
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Home
103: Photo Gallery
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Home
107: Home
108: Home
109: Home
110: Community Forums
111: Home
112: Home
113: Home
114: Home
115: Home
116: Home
117: Home
118: Home
119: Home
120: Home
121: Home
122: Community Forums
123: Home
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Home
127: Photo Gallery
128: Home
129: Home
130: Home
131: Home
132: Home
133: Home
134: Home
135: Home
136: Home
137: Home
138: Photo Gallery
139: Home
140: Home
141: Home
142: Home
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Home
147: Photo Gallery
148: Home
149: Home
150: Home
151: Photo Gallery
152: News Archive
153: Home
154: Home
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Home
159: Home
160: Home
161: Home
162: Home
163: Home
164: Home
165: Home
166: Home
167: Home
168: Home
169: Community Forums
170: Community Forums
171: Home
172: Community Forums
173: Photo Gallery
174: Home
175: Home
176: Home
177: Home
178: Downloads
179: Photo Gallery
180: Home
181: Member Screenshots
182: Home
183: Home
184: Home
185: Home
186: Home
187: Member Screenshots
188: Home
189: Home
190: Home
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Home
195: Home
196: Home
197: Home
198: Home
199: Home
200: Home
201: Downloads
202: Home
203: Member Screenshots
204: Home
205: Community Forums
206: Home
207: Home
208: Home
209: Home
210: Home
211: Photo Gallery
212: News Archive
213: Member Screenshots
214: Home
215: Home
216: Home
217: Statistics
218: Home
219: Home
220: Home
221: Home
222: Home
223: Home
224: Community Forums
225: Home
226: Home
227: Home
228: Home
229: Home
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Home
233: Home
234: Home
235: Downloads
236: Downloads
237: Home
238: Photo Gallery
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Community Forums
242: Community Forums
243: Member Screenshots
244: Downloads
245: Photo Gallery
246: Member Screenshots
247: Home
248: Downloads
249: Photo Gallery
250: Home
251: Home
252: Community Forums
253: Home
254: Home
255: Home
256: Home
257: Downloads
258: Member Screenshots
259: Home
260: Photo Gallery
261: Community Forums
262: Home
263: Home
264: Home
265: News Archive
266: Home
267: Photo Gallery
268: Home
269: Home
270: Home
271: Home
272: Home
273: Home
274: Member Screenshots
275: Home
276: Home
277: Home
278: Home
279: Community Forums
280: Downloads
281: Home
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: Home
285: Member Screenshots
286: Home
287: Home
288: News
289: Photo Gallery
290: Downloads
291: Home
292: Home
293: Member Screenshots
294: Home
295: Home
296: Home
297: Community Forums
298: Home
299: Home
300: Home
301: Home
302: Home
303: Home
304: News Archive
305: Home
306: Home
307: Home
308: Home
309: Home
310: Home
311: Home
312: Home
313: Home
314: Home
315: Community Forums
316: Home
317: Home
318: Member Screenshots
319: Home
320: Home
321: Community Forums
322: Home
323: Home
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: News Archive
327: Home
328: Home
329: Home
330: Home
331: Member Screenshots
332: Community Forums
333: Home
334: Home
335: Home
336: Statistics
337: Photo Gallery
338: Home
339: Home
340: Photo Gallery
341: Home
342: Home
343: Home
344: Home
345: Downloads
346: Community Forums
347: Home
348: Home
349: Home
350: Photo Gallery
351: Home
352: Home
353: Member Screenshots
354: Photo Gallery
355: Home
356: Home
357: Photo Gallery
358: Home
359: Community Forums
360: Member Screenshots
361: Home
362: Home
363: Member Screenshots
364: Downloads
365: Home
366: Home
367: Home
368: Home
369: Home
370: Home
371: Community Forums
372: Home
373: Community Forums
374: Statistics
375: Home
376: Home
377: Photo Gallery
378: Community Forums
379: News
380: Community Forums
381: Home
382: Home
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Home
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Home
389: Home
390: Home
391: Home
392: Home
393: Home
394: Home
395: Home
396: Home
397: Home
398: Member Screenshots
399: Community Forums
400: Home
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Home
404: Home
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Home
408: Home
409: Home
410: Community Forums
411: Home
412: Home
413: Home
414: Home
415: Home
416: Home
417: Home
418: Home
419: Home
420: Home
421: Home
422: Home
423: Home
424: Home
425: Home
426: Home
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: Home
430: Home
431: Home
432: Home
433: Member Screenshots
434: Member Screenshots
435: Home
436: Home
437: Home
438: Member Screenshots
439: Community Forums
440: Home
441: Home
442: Home
443: Home
444: Community Forums
445: Home
446: Home
447: Home
448: Home
449: Photo Gallery
450: Photo Gallery
451: Community Forums
452: Home
453: Photo Gallery
454: Member Screenshots
455: Community Forums
456: Photo Gallery
457: Home
458: Home
459: Home
460: Photo Gallery
461: Home
462: Photo Gallery
463: Photo Gallery
464: Home
465: Photo Gallery
466: News
467: News
468: Home
469: Member Screenshots
470: Photo Gallery
471: Member Screenshots
472: Home
473: Community Forums
474: Home
475: Home
476: Home
477: Downloads
478: Home
479: Home
480: Home
481: Downloads
482: Member Screenshots
483: Member Screenshots
484: Home
485: Home
486: Home
487: Home
488: Home
489: Home
490: Community Forums
491: Photo Gallery
492: Community Forums
493: Photo Gallery
494: Photo Gallery
495: Home
496: Member Screenshots
497: Community Forums
498: Home
499: Community Forums
500: Home
501: Home
502: Home
503: Community Forums
504: Community Forums
505: Home
506: News
507: Community Forums
508: Home
509: Home
510: Home
511: Home
512: Community Forums
513: Home
514: Member Screenshots
515: Home
516: Home
517: Home
518: Home
519: Home
520: Home
521: Home
522: Home
523: Member Screenshots
524: Home
525: Home
526: Home
527: Home
528: Home
529: Home
530: Home
531: Home
532: Community Forums
533: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Thermal Shrouds Question
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:20 am
Post subject: Thermal Shrouds Question

Exactly what are main gun thermal shrouds for? I was told that it's so the heat from the gun tube does not interfere with the thermal sights but I think shrouds were around before thermal sites.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

I was told by a tanker friend that it was to keep the barrel as temperature stable as possible to enhance accuracy. don't know if he was correct or not

Jeff Lewis
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Piney,

I've heard that too. Was told that the sun beating down on the tube makes it hotter on top than on bottom. Shroud makes the temp even all the way around.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2069
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi 'Weed, Jeff.
Was told that the sun beating down on the tube makes it hotter on top than on bottom. Shroud makes the temp even all the way around.


Yes, the shroud allows the tube to maintain a relative even temperature all around thus causing the metal to expand and contract evenly. This reduces boresight loss by tube bending and increases accuracy from round to round. Prior to thermal shrouds, we would boresight first thing in the morning and then re boresight at least 2 to 3 more times during the day based on how warm it was and how hard the sun beat on us. During firing the tube also heats up and the shroud reduces the bending of the tube by about 50% IAW the "Book". One dirty trick on the A1's was to pour water over or urinate on another crews tube without them looking during gunnery so they would loose their boresight Twisted Evil . The Master Gunner School actually demonstrated this phenomena by pouring water down the tube from the breech after firing a few rounds. Then they do an MRS update (That little device on the end of the M1 Tubes) and fire another to demostrate that it will correct for boresight loss. The longer a gun tube is, the more important the shroud becomes. Very important for long range gunnery.

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

The thermal shroud also contains the heat around the gun tube. This way the thermal radiation (heat) eminating from the gun tube does not distort the image on the thermal sight. This only effects tanks with thermal sights though.

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Mark! Hi Folks!

I remember prior to the 1973 Middle East War, there was a chart that listed the max effective range of US Army Anti-tank weapons.

While the TOW was listed as 3,000 meters, the 105mm on our M60 MBTs was only listed as effective out to 1,200 meters. One thing that always confuzed me for the longest time was that the M60 tank was capable of 4,400 meters when it rolled out of the factory doors.

That was also during the time when there was a lot of talk about ATGMs being better than MBTs because they could hit targets at greater ranges than a tank and cost less.

When the 'lessons learned' came out after the 1973 war, the US Army was very surpised that IDF tankers had a very high number of hits on targets at greater than 1,200 meters with 105mm cannon.

A number of things where changed with US MBTs and tanker training. The three things I remember most was the AOS was installed on the M60s, the thermal shround was added (something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain) and the Master Gunner Program was started.

Some very old history, as I remember it.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:20 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

- Roy_A_Lingle

A number of things where changed with US MBTs and tanker training. The three things I remember most was the AOS was installed on the M60s, the thermal shround was added (something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain) and the Master Gunner Program was started.


Excuse me we had them on Centurions as well!

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:30 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb
- Roy_A_Lingle

....something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain.....


Excuse me we had them on Centurions as well!

Cool


If I remember right, the British Chieftain was the FIRST MBT to use thermal shrouds. In time just about everyone who used a 105mm gun tube based on the L7 design added shrouds. I remember a lot of Centurion photos with tubes that only had paint on them.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:51 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb
- Roy_A_Lingle

....something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain.....


Excuse me we had them on Centurions as well!

Cool


If I remember right, the British Chieftain was the FIRST MBT to use thermal shrouds. In time just about everyone who used a 105mm gun tube based on the L7 design added shrouds. I remember a lot of Centurion photos with tubes that only had paint on them.

Sgt, Scouts Out!



And I can remember a lot of M60 tubes without them... BUT the thermal jacket was first issued on the Centurion Mk 10 - four years before Chieftain entered service. All marks after that had them issued but not neccessarily fitted.

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2069
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Roy, Jim,
What's interesting is the Thermal shroud did not get fielded with US Tanks until the M60A3 came around. Kinda funny since everyone else had them long before. I think it had a lot to do with the whole package upgrade to A3. Putting a shroud on an A1 would help you with maintaining your boresight but besides that not much else. I can understand why you would need one on the Cheiftain, just look at the length of the tube.
Maximum effective range on the A1's was officially 1800 meters. The FCS could make firing solutions out to 4400 but to be able to consistently hit (98% excluding Gunner error) 1800 was it. The A3 would also calculate solutions out to 4400 but it's MAX was 3000 meters with the same gun. Amazing what a modern FCS can do. Some of the things it compensated for that the A1 didn't were Air Density (Elevation and Air Temp), Crosswind, Cant, Ammo Temp, and a consistent accurate Rangefinder good for+/- 5 meters.
About the Master Gunner Program, Yes, it started to make a big difference. But then you had to get larger CVC helmets when their heads swelled up Mr. Green

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Didn't i read somewhere that Merkava has (had) a bit of a problem in regard to thermal imaging distortion. Basically, you're out in the hot desert in a big steel box with the engine compartment between you an the target. Those 'heat ripples' off the hot engine deck make the setup less than ideal.

okay, I may be all wet on this. This may be a problem recounted from the '82 Lebanon war (25 years ago!) for all I know!
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:53 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Mike! Hi Folks!

- mike_Duplessis
Didn't i read somewhere that Merkava has (had) a bit of a problem in regard to thermal imaging distortion. Basically, you're out in the hot desert in a big steel box with the engine compartment between you an the target. Those 'heat ripples' off the hot engine deck make the setup less than ideal.


I don't know about the Merkava, but that sounds possible to me. In my current job, one of things I do is use thermal cameras. When the cameras were new, heat from near by street lights didn't bother them. But as the cameras aged, nearby heat sources start interfearing with them and the picture quality goes to pot when the camera is pointed in the direction of a street light.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb

....the thermal jacket was first issued on the Centurion Mk 10 - four years before Chieftain entered service.
Cool


I didn't know that, possible because I am not British, I just remember the Chieftain as the first tank I ever saw with thermal shrouds and always wondered why the US didn't also use them.

Thanks for the update Jim.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JG300-Ascout
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 05, 2005
Posts: 6258
Location: Cyberspace
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:21 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

...and to add to the list of mysteries like "Green Tigers in Africa" and "Pink Panthers in Vietnam" there's always the......









...wait for it......








"Thermal Shroud of Turin"


(Thank ya' very much....)

_________________
"All facts go to clearly prove that Shades is a thrice-cursed traitor & mentally deranged person steeped in inveterate enmity toward mankind"
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum