±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 673
Total: 673
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Community Forums
03: Home
04: Home
05: Member Screenshots
06: Home
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Home
11: Home
12: Home
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Home
17: Home
18: Community Forums
19: Photo Gallery
20: Home
21: News Archive
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Home
25: Member Screenshots
26: Home
27: Home
28: Home
29: Community Forums
30: Home
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Statistics
35: Community Forums
36: Member Screenshots
37: Community Forums
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Downloads
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Downloads
51: Home
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Photo Gallery
55: Downloads
56: Photo Gallery
57: Home
58: Community Forums
59: Home
60: Community Forums
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Member Screenshots
65: Photo Gallery
66: Downloads
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Downloads
70: Photo Gallery
71: Photo Gallery
72: Downloads
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Photo Gallery
76: Community Forums
77: Community Forums
78: Photo Gallery
79: Photo Gallery
80: Statistics
81: Home
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Photo Gallery
86: Home
87: Downloads
88: Photo Gallery
89: Member Screenshots
90: Home
91: Downloads
92: Downloads
93: Community Forums
94: Member Screenshots
95: Community Forums
96: Photo Gallery
97: Statistics
98: Statistics
99: Community Forums
100: Photo Gallery
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: Community Forums
107: Photo Gallery
108: News Archive
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Statistics
119: Photo Gallery
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Home
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: Photo Gallery
126: Home
127: Photo Gallery
128: Community Forums
129: Home
130: News
131: Photo Gallery
132: Member Screenshots
133: Member Screenshots
134: Community Forums
135: Downloads
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Photo Gallery
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Home
144: Member Screenshots
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Community Forums
149: News
150: Community Forums
151: Home
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Home
155: Photo Gallery
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Home
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Photo Gallery
166: Home
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Downloads
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Statistics
174: Downloads
175: Home
176: Downloads
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Member Screenshots
180: Statistics
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Downloads
186: Photo Gallery
187: Photo Gallery
188: Community Forums
189: Member Screenshots
190: Community Forums
191: Downloads
192: Community Forums
193: Home
194: Community Forums
195: Member Screenshots
196: Photo Gallery
197: Downloads
198: News Archive
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Member Screenshots
202: Photo Gallery
203: Home
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Member Screenshots
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Downloads
211: Community Forums
212: Home
213: Home
214: Home
215: Downloads
216: Community Forums
217: Statistics
218: Community Forums
219: Downloads
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Photo Gallery
225: Downloads
226: Statistics
227: Home
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Photo Gallery
232: Home
233: Photo Gallery
234: Home
235: Home
236: Community Forums
237: Photo Gallery
238: Home
239: Member Screenshots
240: Photo Gallery
241: Home
242: Downloads
243: Photo Gallery
244: Photo Gallery
245: Statistics
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Photo Gallery
250: Member Screenshots
251: Photo Gallery
252: Community Forums
253: Downloads
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Home
259: Downloads
260: Home
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Home
265: Home
266: Statistics
267: Downloads
268: Home
269: Home
270: Photo Gallery
271: Home
272: Community Forums
273: News Archive
274: Member Screenshots
275: Home
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Downloads
279: Photo Gallery
280: Home
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Photo Gallery
284: Community Forums
285: News Archive
286: Photo Gallery
287: Home
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Photo Gallery
291: Home
292: Community Forums
293: Home
294: Photo Gallery
295: Home
296: Home
297: Photo Gallery
298: Community Forums
299: Member Screenshots
300: Community Forums
301: Downloads
302: Statistics
303: Community Forums
304: Photo Gallery
305: Photo Gallery
306: Photo Gallery
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Member Screenshots
311: Photo Gallery
312: Community Forums
313: Home
314: Photo Gallery
315: Home
316: Home
317: Community Forums
318: Photo Gallery
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Photo Gallery
323: News Archive
324: Home
325: Community Forums
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Community Forums
329: Downloads
330: Community Forums
331: Home
332: Community Forums
333: Photo Gallery
334: Statistics
335: Home
336: Photo Gallery
337: Downloads
338: Home
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Home
342: Photo Gallery
343: Community Forums
344: Photo Gallery
345: Downloads
346: Home
347: Photo Gallery
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Home
351: Photo Gallery
352: Community Forums
353: Photo Gallery
354: Photo Gallery
355: Downloads
356: Community Forums
357: Community Forums
358: Home
359: Photo Gallery
360: Community Forums
361: Community Forums
362: Downloads
363: Photo Gallery
364: Photo Gallery
365: Member Screenshots
366: Home
367: Home
368: Home
369: Downloads
370: Community Forums
371: Home
372: Photo Gallery
373: Downloads
374: Home
375: Downloads
376: Photo Gallery
377: Photo Gallery
378: Community Forums
379: Home
380: Photo Gallery
381: Community Forums
382: Photo Gallery
383: Home
384: Home
385: Downloads
386: Community Forums
387: Home
388: Member Screenshots
389: Community Forums
390: Member Screenshots
391: Home
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Photo Gallery
395: Home
396: Community Forums
397: Community Forums
398: Home
399: Member Screenshots
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Photo Gallery
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Home
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Photo Gallery
410: Downloads
411: Community Forums
412: Photo Gallery
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Downloads
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Statistics
420: Photo Gallery
421: Downloads
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Photo Gallery
425: Downloads
426: Downloads
427: Photo Gallery
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Downloads
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: Downloads
435: Home
436: Community Forums
437: Downloads
438: Community Forums
439: Home
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: News Archive
443: Home
444: News Archive
445: Community Forums
446: Home
447: Downloads
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Home
451: Home
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Home
455: Home
456: Community Forums
457: Photo Gallery
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: News Archive
465: Photo Gallery
466: Home
467: Photo Gallery
468: Home
469: Home
470: Home
471: Member Screenshots
472: Community Forums
473: Community Forums
474: Home
475: Photo Gallery
476: Photo Gallery
477: Member Screenshots
478: Downloads
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Photo Gallery
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Photo Gallery
485: Member Screenshots
486: Photo Gallery
487: Home
488: Member Screenshots
489: Member Screenshots
490: Home
491: Downloads
492: Photo Gallery
493: Statistics
494: Community Forums
495: Photo Gallery
496: Home
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Home
502: Community Forums
503: Photo Gallery
504: Community Forums
505: Home
506: Photo Gallery
507: Home
508: Downloads
509: Photo Gallery
510: Photo Gallery
511: Photo Gallery
512: Home
513: Photo Gallery
514: Photo Gallery
515: Member Screenshots
516: Member Screenshots
517: Community Forums
518: Downloads
519: Home
520: Statistics
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Downloads
524: News Archive
525: Home
526: News Archive
527: Photo Gallery
528: Downloads
529: Photo Gallery
530: Downloads
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: Photo Gallery
534: Photo Gallery
535: Community Forums
536: Home
537: LinkToUs
538: Photo Gallery
539: Community Forums
540: News
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Member Screenshots
546: Home
547: Community Forums
548: Community Forums
549: Home
550: News Archive
551: Home
552: Home
553: Downloads
554: Home
555: News Archive
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: News Archive
559: Community Forums
560: Home
561: Downloads
562: Community Forums
563: Community Forums
564: Statistics
565: Home
566: Member Screenshots
567: Photo Gallery
568: Home
569: Downloads
570: Photo Gallery
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Member Screenshots
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Photo Gallery
580: Community Forums
581: Statistics
582: Photo Gallery
583: Community Forums
584: Photo Gallery
585: Community Forums
586: Community Forums
587: Member Screenshots
588: Downloads
589: Photo Gallery
590: Photo Gallery
591: Photo Gallery
592: Member Screenshots
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Home
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Photo Gallery
604: Home
605: Community Forums
606: Photo Gallery
607: Photo Gallery
608: Community Forums
609: Downloads
610: Home
611: Photo Gallery
612: Community Forums
613: Downloads
614: Community Forums
615: Photo Gallery
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Home
619: News Archive
620: Photo Gallery
621: Photo Gallery
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Home
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Home
629: Member Screenshots
630: Photo Gallery
631: Statistics
632: Community Forums
633: Photo Gallery
634: Community Forums
635: News Archive
636: Community Forums
637: Photo Gallery
638: Statistics
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Statistics
652: Member Screenshots
653: Community Forums
654: Statistics
655: Community Forums
656: Photo Gallery
657: Community Forums
658: Home
659: Photo Gallery
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Home
663: Statistics
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Home
668: Home
669: Home
670: Home
671: Photo Gallery
672: Community Forums
673: Home

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Thermal Shrouds Question
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:20 am
Post subject: Thermal Shrouds Question

Exactly what are main gun thermal shrouds for? I was told that it's so the heat from the gun tube does not interfere with the thermal sights but I think shrouds were around before thermal sites.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

I was told by a tanker friend that it was to keep the barrel as temperature stable as possible to enhance accuracy. don't know if he was correct or not

Jeff Lewis
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:10 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Piney,

I've heard that too. Was told that the sun beating down on the tube makes it hotter on top than on bottom. Shroud makes the temp even all the way around.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2069
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:12 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi 'Weed, Jeff.
Was told that the sun beating down on the tube makes it hotter on top than on bottom. Shroud makes the temp even all the way around.


Yes, the shroud allows the tube to maintain a relative even temperature all around thus causing the metal to expand and contract evenly. This reduces boresight loss by tube bending and increases accuracy from round to round. Prior to thermal shrouds, we would boresight first thing in the morning and then re boresight at least 2 to 3 more times during the day based on how warm it was and how hard the sun beat on us. During firing the tube also heats up and the shroud reduces the bending of the tube by about 50% IAW the "Book". One dirty trick on the A1's was to pour water over or urinate on another crews tube without them looking during gunnery so they would loose their boresight Twisted Evil . The Master Gunner School actually demonstrated this phenomena by pouring water down the tube from the breech after firing a few rounds. Then they do an MRS update (That little device on the end of the M1 Tubes) and fire another to demostrate that it will correct for boresight loss. The longer a gun tube is, the more important the shroud becomes. Very important for long range gunnery.

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

The thermal shroud also contains the heat around the gun tube. This way the thermal radiation (heat) eminating from the gun tube does not distort the image on the thermal sight. This only effects tanks with thermal sights though.

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:00 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Mark! Hi Folks!

I remember prior to the 1973 Middle East War, there was a chart that listed the max effective range of US Army Anti-tank weapons.

While the TOW was listed as 3,000 meters, the 105mm on our M60 MBTs was only listed as effective out to 1,200 meters. One thing that always confuzed me for the longest time was that the M60 tank was capable of 4,400 meters when it rolled out of the factory doors.

That was also during the time when there was a lot of talk about ATGMs being better than MBTs because they could hit targets at greater ranges than a tank and cost less.

When the 'lessons learned' came out after the 1973 war, the US Army was very surpised that IDF tankers had a very high number of hits on targets at greater than 1,200 meters with 105mm cannon.

A number of things where changed with US MBTs and tanker training. The three things I remember most was the AOS was installed on the M60s, the thermal shround was added (something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain) and the Master Gunner Program was started.

Some very old history, as I remember it.
Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:20 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

- Roy_A_Lingle

A number of things where changed with US MBTs and tanker training. The three things I remember most was the AOS was installed on the M60s, the thermal shround was added (something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain) and the Master Gunner Program was started.


Excuse me we had them on Centurions as well!

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 10:30 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb
- Roy_A_Lingle

....something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain.....


Excuse me we had them on Centurions as well!

Cool


If I remember right, the British Chieftain was the FIRST MBT to use thermal shrouds. In time just about everyone who used a 105mm gun tube based on the L7 design added shrouds. I remember a lot of Centurion photos with tubes that only had paint on them.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JimWeb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1439
Location: The back of beyond
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:51 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb
- Roy_A_Lingle

....something the Brits had been doing ever sense they fielded the Chieftain.....


Excuse me we had them on Centurions as well!

Cool


If I remember right, the British Chieftain was the FIRST MBT to use thermal shrouds. In time just about everyone who used a 105mm gun tube based on the L7 design added shrouds. I remember a lot of Centurion photos with tubes that only had paint on them.

Sgt, Scouts Out!



And I can remember a lot of M60 tubes without them... BUT the thermal jacket was first issued on the Centurion Mk 10 - four years before Chieftain entered service. All marks after that had them issued but not neccessarily fitted.

Cool

_________________
TTFN
Jim

If your not a member of JED then your
not serious about anything military..

***********************
www.jedsite.info
JED Military Equipment
***********************
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website ICQ Number
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2069
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 6:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Roy, Jim,
What's interesting is the Thermal shroud did not get fielded with US Tanks until the M60A3 came around. Kinda funny since everyone else had them long before. I think it had a lot to do with the whole package upgrade to A3. Putting a shroud on an A1 would help you with maintaining your boresight but besides that not much else. I can understand why you would need one on the Cheiftain, just look at the length of the tube.
Maximum effective range on the A1's was officially 1800 meters. The FCS could make firing solutions out to 4400 but to be able to consistently hit (98% excluding Gunner error) 1800 was it. The A3 would also calculate solutions out to 4400 but it's MAX was 3000 meters with the same gun. Amazing what a modern FCS can do. Some of the things it compensated for that the A1 didn't were Air Density (Elevation and Air Temp), Crosswind, Cant, Ammo Temp, and a consistent accurate Rangefinder good for+/- 5 meters.
About the Master Gunner Program, Yes, it started to make a big difference. But then you had to get larger CVC helmets when their heads swelled up Mr. Green

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
mike_Duplessis
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 236

PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2007 7:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Didn't i read somewhere that Merkava has (had) a bit of a problem in regard to thermal imaging distortion. Basically, you're out in the hot desert in a big steel box with the engine compartment between you an the target. Those 'heat ripples' off the hot engine deck make the setup less than ideal.

okay, I may be all wet on this. This may be a problem recounted from the '82 Lebanon war (25 years ago!) for all I know!
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 5:53 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Mike! Hi Folks!

- mike_Duplessis
Didn't i read somewhere that Merkava has (had) a bit of a problem in regard to thermal imaging distortion. Basically, you're out in the hot desert in a big steel box with the engine compartment between you an the target. Those 'heat ripples' off the hot engine deck make the setup less than ideal.


I don't know about the Merkava, but that sounds possible to me. In my current job, one of things I do is use thermal cameras. When the cameras were new, heat from near by street lights didn't bother them. But as the cameras aged, nearby heat sources start interfearing with them and the picture quality goes to pot when the camera is pointed in the direction of a street light.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

Hi Jim! Hi Folks!

- JimWeb

....the thermal jacket was first issued on the Centurion Mk 10 - four years before Chieftain entered service.
Cool


I didn't know that, possible because I am not British, I just remember the Chieftain as the first tank I ever saw with thermal shrouds and always wondered why the US didn't also use them.

Thanks for the update Jim.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
JG300-Ascout
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 05, 2005
Posts: 6258
Location: Cyberspace
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 11:21 am
Post subject: Re: Thermal Shrouds Question

...and to add to the list of mysteries like "Green Tigers in Africa" and "Pink Panthers in Vietnam" there's always the......









...wait for it......








"Thermal Shroud of Turin"


(Thank ya' very much....)

_________________
"All facts go to clearly prove that Shades is a thrice-cursed traitor & mentally deranged person steeped in inveterate enmity toward mankind"
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum