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new panther turns up at Beltring
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
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Rikard_Hufschmied
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:36 am
Post subject: Re: new panther turns up at Beltring

- JimWeb

The trouble with a lot of this is there is nothing but rumours to go on

I agree, but Kevin Wheatcroft's three Ausf. A's are well confirmed and documented. He has the early A which is close to fully restored, then he has two other hulls being prepeared for restoration. They are all presented on his website. The Cadman Panthers (if there are more than the one now pictured) have been shrouded in rumor for many years though.

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keef
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: new panther turns up at Beltring
Is it me or is the drive sprocket to low?

davemarian
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: new panther turns up at Beltring
- keef Is it me or is the drive sprocket to low? I think the Cadman Panther appears to have a torsion bar problem, broken torsion bars would lead to a low "ride height" and make the drive sprockets appear too low relative to the road wheels. Dave

Garry_Redmon
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:19 am
Post subject: Re: new panther turns up at Beltring

- davemarian

- JimWeb

They quite clearly show the edges of the glacis plate which are ,typically, for a Panther machined flat and not cut with a blowtorch. I'm sure if you do a greater comparison you'll notice other minor (and I stress minor) anomolies.

Hello!! I'm pretty sure that the edges of the glacis plates were never fully machined. One of the original ideas with the Panther, was to flame cut the plates and weld up the sometimes large gaps. This (for the most part) eliminated the second process of machining the edges and bevels prior to welding. This process is described in the Spielberger book. The linked pictures look like a factory cut and welded front plate. just my .02 DAVE

That was what had me puzzled. It pretty much looked like a standard Panther to me, but I'm no expert. Smile

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davemarian
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:24 am
Post subject: Re: new panther turns up at Beltring

I can't find my Spielberger book at the moment, but it gives a brief description of flame cutting the plates and fitting to the weld fixture without much in the way of machining before the hulls were welded up. I guess this allowed plates from several different suppliers to be used without the need for ultra close tolerances. The resulting large gaps were then welded up and the hull assemblies were then machined for the suspension pivot points, final drive mounting locations, etc. The Panther hull that I have measured is almost 2" out of square, the hull is a trapezoidal shape which is ok because of their post welding machining technique. DAVE

jch_in_uk
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: new panther turns up at Beltring
I took this photo earlier, which shows the extent of the damage to the spocket wheel, hidden by a jerry can later in the day. The suspension looks shot on one side, it seems to lean to one side. A couple of other photos. Hope this is of interest. JH

jtrowbridge5
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: new panther turns up at Beltring
had an email from a friend to say someone stole the muzzle brake on Sunday, and it is a former french army firing range tank, with a asking price of round about 1 million pounds,and its almost completly gutted on the inside dennis

Garry_Redmon
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Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:40 pm
Post subject: Re: new panther turns up at Beltring

- davemarian

I can't find my Spielberger book at the moment, but it gives a brief description of flame cutting the plates and fitting to the weld fixture without much in the way of machining before the hulls were welded up. I guess this allowed plates from several different suppliers to be used without the need for ultra close tolerances. The resulting large gaps were then welded up and the hull assemblies were then machined for the suspension pivot points, final drive mounting locations, etc. The Panther hull that I have measured is almost 2" out of square, the hull is a trapezoidal shape which is ok because of their post welding machining technique. DAVE

The Spielberger book mentions that in 1944-45 machine cutting was replaced with autogenous flame cutting which saved time, cost and waste.

A friend of mine who is a friend and does work for Jacque Littlefield made similar observations about the Littlefield Panther's measurements. That two survivors have this same trait may point to a common characteristic of Panthers and the individual craftsmanship in German industry.

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