Ft. Snelling Military Museum - Pics #2

A-109E

Here's the second installment of many. Just throw bricks when you've had enough. Laughing

The next several are dedicated to our revered moderator by special request. Laughing

The remainder are for that gentleman, Chris "Toadman" Hughes, by special request. He was kind enough to exchange an M5 DVD I ordered in error for the correct M5A1 with no questions asked, and I believe he even smiled. Laughing

(Sorry, Chris: no interior shots possible.)

MarkHolloway

Great shots! The M551 is actually an M551A1. May have come from the 82nd Airborne since it doesn't have the bolt-on mine kit under it.

Jens_O_Mehner

Hmmm,

an M48A1, wish they'd apply a little TLC to the old gal... Failing that, it would make a nice conversation piece on my lawn, but the shipping might be a bit too much. <sigh>

Bob Smart is interested in M551s? Gee, I never knew that, surprises lurking at every corner. Wink

Thanks for sharing, Bob, and I can assure you I'm completely out of bricks. Razz

Doug_Kibbey

I read with great interest about the Sheridan's "152mm discarding sabot" and how this round was responsible for imparting "some" spin to conventional projectiles. I wonder how the other conventional rounds achieved their rotation? And I'm dyin' to hear more about the Sheridan's APDS (or APFSDS) round itself. And the loadout. And how production commenced in 1969. Shocked

(...and how much faster than 43 mph is it being suggested that they were capable of? I saw a little more down hill on Porter River Rd. once, but it gets pretty steep there for a brief stretch)

And what's this Soviet T92 tank it was VISMODed to resemble?

And if an M48 is a "Patton II", is an M60 not a "Patton III"?

Bob, get on in there and help those good folks out! (I'm thinkin' about throwing some bricks, but not at Bob!)

Wink

Jens_O_Mehner · Last edited by Jens_O_Mehner on Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total

Not to mention that those few airborne armor types might appreciate a passing mention that they took the M551 to the sandbox in 1991/92 and were the first line of defense until the heavier stuff could be moved into theater.

Sheesh, who writes these things? Is it like "Fred, do some googling on that there tank" or more like "Wilbur, weren't you a mechanic on those things?"... Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate their efforts and know the limitations inherent, but if you put up a plate in the first place and apparently do some research anyways, you might as well get it right and not make it seem like "Sparky" is your consultant.

Yeah, I know, 99% of the visitors don't know an M4 from their elbow, but this is one of my pet peeves... Evil or Very Mad

Roy_A_Lingle

Hi Jens! Hi Folks!

Jens_O_Mehner wrote:

Hmmm,
Bob Smart is interested in M551s? Gee, I never knew that, surprises lurking at every corner. Wink

Hey Jens! Wrong Bob! This photos come from Bob, the A-109E Helo pilot, not Bob Smart the ex-F15 fixer upper guy!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

P.S.
Thanks Bob (A109E) for the great photos, please feel free to post more!

Roy_A_Lingle

Hi Doug! Hi Folks!

Doug_Kibbey wrote:

I read with great interest about the Sheridan's "152mm discarding sabot" and how this round was responsible for imparting "some" spin to conventional projectiles. I wonder how the other conventional rounds achieved their rotation? And I'm dyin' to hear more about the Sheridan's APDS (or APFSDS) round itself.

Odd, but interesting. If I remember right the reason the MTB70 152mm gun/launcher had a longer barrel, than the M551 and the M60A2, was there was a plan to develope a discarding sabot round, after production had started, for use by the MTB70.

Doug_Kibbey wrote:

And how production commenced in 1969. Shocked

Let me see now, I arrived at Ft. Riley in late summer of 1968 and the 1st Bn (Light) 63rd Armor, 1st Infantry Division (rear detachment, the division was in Vietnam at that time) already have M551s for over a year or more. Sometime during the summer of 1969, the unit moved down to Ft. Bragg where we found a squadron of the 17th Cav (82nd Airborne's recon squadron) which already had 9 M551s which had been there for some time.

Doug_Kibbey wrote:

And if an M48 is a "Patton II", is an M60 not a "Patton III"?

No. If we are going to add numbers after the name, then they have that wrong also.

M-46 Patton = Patton I
M-47 Patton = Patton II
M-48 Patton = Patton III
M-60 (never named) = Patton IV

Got to give them an "A" for effort for saving old vehicles, but their documention gets a "D".
Sgt, Scouts Out!

Jens_O_Mehner

Roy_A_Lingle wrote:

Hi Jens! Hi Folks!

Jens_O_Mehner wrote:

Hmmm,
Bob Smart is interested in M551s? Gee, I never knew that, surprises lurking at every corner. Wink

Hey Jens! Wrong Bob! This photos come from Bob, the A-109E Helo pilot, not Bob Smart the ex-F15 fixer upper guy!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

P.S.
Thanks Bob (A109E) for the great photos, please feel free to post more!

Ahhm, I knew that, I was playing on the "revered moderator", knowing full well Bob meant Dougbert E. Kibblee, not Bob Smart... Cool

Jens_O_Mehner

Roy_A_Lingle wrote:

Doug_Kibbey wrote:

And how production commenced in 1969. Shocked

Let me see now, I arrived at Ft. Riley in late summer of 1968 and the 1st Bn (Light) 63rd Armor, 1st Infantry Division (rear detachment, the division was in Vietnam at that time) already have M551s for over a year or more. Sometime during the summer of 1969, the unit moved down to Ft. Bragg where we found a squadron of the 17th Cav (82nd Airborne's recon squadron) which already had 9 M551s which had been there for some time.

Got to give them an "A" for effort for saving old vehicles, but their documention gets a "D".
Sgt, Scouts Out!

The first production vehicles rolled off the assembly line in 1965. Interestingly enough, the M551 came into being because the T92 wasn't to be- that's probably where the T92 tidbit comes from, but somebody seriously scrambled their data ("Gee, Jack, if it's got a "T" designation, it must be Rooshian")... Laughing

bsmart

Jens_O_Mehner wrote:

Roy_A_Lingle wrote:

Hi Jens! Hi Folks!

Jens_O_Mehner wrote:

Hmmm,
Bob Smart is interested in M551s? Gee, I never knew that, surprises lurking at every corner. Wink

Hey Jens! Wrong Bob! This photos come from Bob, the A-109E Helo pilot, not Bob Smart the ex-F15 fixer upper guy!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

P.S.
Thanks Bob (A109E) for the great photos, please feel free to post more!

Ahhm, I knew that, I was playing on the "revered moderator", knowing full well Bob meant Dougbert E. Kibblee, not Bob Smart... Cool

Don't worry I got it

I'm beginning to think we're getting too many Bobs around here

Also inspite of what Senor Kibbey says I consider him the true moderator of this forum. Actually with this group it is more of 'facilitator' rather than moderator given the manners shown by all membors of this group.

Doug_Kibbey

Roy_A_Lingle wrote:

Hi Doug! Hi Folks!

Doug_Kibbey wrote:

I read with great interest about the Sheridan's "152mm discarding sabot" and how this round was responsible for imparting "some" spin to conventional projectiles. I wonder how the other conventional rounds achieved their rotation? And I'm dyin' to hear more about the Sheridan's APDS (or APFSDS) round itself.

Odd, but interesting. If I remember right the reason the MTB70 152mm gun/launcher had a longer barrel, than the M551 and the M60A2, was there was a plan to develope a discarding sabot round, after production had started, for use by the MTB70.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

Ding, ding, ding! Roy gets a cookie!
Exactly! (Which is why I was so careful to get that Sheridan bit in there before the 152mm....twice!) Mr. Green

"XM578 152mm, APFSDS
From 1965 to 1972, the US Army conducted development program for the 152mm XM578 cartridge, which was co-developed with the prototype MBT-70 Tank. The XM578 cartridge used a tungsten alloy that was slightly denser than the British alloy, consisting of 97.5 percent tungsten and 2.5 percent binder, which had a density of 18.5 gm/cc. The tungsten alloys used in the XM578 projectile had to be encased in a steel jacket to withstand the extreme firing velocities of the 152mm gun, reducing the penetrating effectiveness of the tungsten cartridge.

A strategy was devised that called for combining ultra-lightweight plastics with titanium sabot components. These were combined with a plastic driving and sealing band that allowed insertion of the much longer KE cartridge several feet down the rifled bore of the new cannon.

With the terminatlon of the Program and the initiation of the XM-1 Tank Program, a need for a modern 105mm Anti-tank, Kinetic Energy Projectile. Picatlnny Arsenal responded to this tasking by utilizing the technology gained in the 152nwn Program - specifically the subpEojectile - and adapting it to the 105mm Gun by means of a saddle sabot.

Throughout the 1960s and early 1970s, the US Army developed a successive series of improved 105mm rounds (the primary caliber of the main gun on M-60 and developmental XM-1 series tanks) using the denser 97.5 percent tungsten alloy. The XM735 and XM774 cartridges were the first rounds developed out of the XM578 cartridge program.

A decision analysis was performed on the XM578 APFSDS projectile development program in 1973. The decision analysis differed from a Risk Analysis in that, along with assessing program risks, the decision analysis proposed alternative program approaches and compared the expected outcomes of the proposed alternatives with the basic program. Prime consideration was given to the quantification of uncertainties, examination of allocation of resources between test and design phases of the development program and to quantify the value of information obtained in a test program."

www.globalsecurity.org...s/m578.htm

Doug_Kibbey

Jens wrote:

Ahhm, I knew that, I was playing on the "revered moderator", knowing full well Bob meant Dougbert E. Kibblee, not Bob Smart

bsmart wrote:

Actually with this group it is more of 'facilitator' rather than moderator given the manners shown by all membors of this group.

*Purr, purr*

(Actually, it's true!)

MarkHolloway

The M551 had 300 horsepower.

Roy_A_Lingle

Hi Mark! Hi Folks!

MarkHolloway wrote:

The M551 had 300 horsepower.

300 HP!

Scouts in seven ton M114s with only a 283 cubic inch Chevy engine had to run hard to stay out in front of those speedy monsters.

Sgt, Scouts Out!

MarkHolloway

M114's had 160 HP. They could have gotten more if they wanted Smile

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