±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 674
Total: 674
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Home
04: News
05: Community Forums
06: Downloads
07: Photo Gallery
08: Home
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: News
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Member Screenshots
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Photo Gallery
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Home
27: Photo Gallery
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Member Screenshots
31: Community Forums
32: Your Account
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Community Forums
40: Photo Gallery
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Community Forums
44: Home
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: News Archive
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Downloads
53: Community Forums
54: Downloads
55: Home
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: News Archive
61: Community Forums
62: Home
63: Community Forums
64: Downloads
65: Home
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Photo Gallery
69: Home
70: Downloads
71: Photo Gallery
72: Home
73: Community Forums
74: Downloads
75: Home
76: News Archive
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Photo Gallery
80: Home
81: Your Account
82: Home
83: Downloads
84: Community Forums
85: Home
86: Photo Gallery
87: Community Forums
88: Member Screenshots
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Community Forums
93: Member Screenshots
94: Photo Gallery
95: Photo Gallery
96: Downloads
97: Community Forums
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Downloads
103: Photo Gallery
104: Member Screenshots
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Downloads
108: Your Account
109: Your Account
110: Community Forums
111: Home
112: Member Screenshots
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Photo Gallery
116: Photo Gallery
117: Photo Gallery
118: Community Forums
119: Downloads
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Community Forums
124: Home
125: News Archive
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Downloads
129: Downloads
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Member Screenshots
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Community Forums
141: Statistics
142: Your Account
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Community Forums
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Downloads
152: Community Forums
153: Downloads
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Downloads
158: Home
159: Photo Gallery
160: Community Forums
161: Member Screenshots
162: Member Screenshots
163: News
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Member Screenshots
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: News Archive
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Member Screenshots
181: Community Forums
182: Downloads
183: Downloads
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: Photo Gallery
187: Statistics
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Photo Gallery
192: News
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Photo Gallery
197: Photo Gallery
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: Member Screenshots
201: Photo Gallery
202: Member Screenshots
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Photo Gallery
206: Photo Gallery
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Photo Gallery
210: Community Forums
211: Photo Gallery
212: Member Screenshots
213: Community Forums
214: Photo Gallery
215: Statistics
216: Community Forums
217: Member Screenshots
218: Community Forums
219: Downloads
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Community Forums
225: Photo Gallery
226: Downloads
227: Photo Gallery
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: Photo Gallery
231: Community Forums
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: Member Screenshots
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Photo Gallery
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: Photo Gallery
242: Community Forums
243: Home
244: Photo Gallery
245: Community Forums
246: News Archive
247: Community Forums
248: Photo Gallery
249: Photo Gallery
250: News
251: Home
252: Photo Gallery
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Downloads
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Photo Gallery
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Photo Gallery
265: Photo Gallery
266: Photo Gallery
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Photo Gallery
274: Photo Gallery
275: Home
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Downloads
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Member Screenshots
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Statistics
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Photo Gallery
301: Photo Gallery
302: Photo Gallery
303: Home
304: Home
305: Community Forums
306: Photo Gallery
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Photo Gallery
310: Groups
311: Home
312: Downloads
313: Community Forums
314: Home
315: Community Forums
316: Downloads
317: Home
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Community Forums
322: Home
323: Downloads
324: Contact
325: Photo Gallery
326: Member Screenshots
327: Photo Gallery
328: Community Forums
329: Member Screenshots
330: Member Screenshots
331: Home
332: Statistics
333: Community Forums
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Downloads
337: Photo Gallery
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Member Screenshots
343: Community Forums
344: Photo Gallery
345: Downloads
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Home
349: Home
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Community Forums
354: Home
355: Community Forums
356: Member Screenshots
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Home
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Photo Gallery
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Photo Gallery
368: Photo Gallery
369: Community Forums
370: Home
371: Member Screenshots
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Home
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Photo Gallery
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Home
383: Home
384: Home
385: Home
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Member Screenshots
389: Member Screenshots
390: Member Screenshots
391: Community Forums
392: Member Screenshots
393: Community Forums
394: Member Screenshots
395: Member Screenshots
396: Member Screenshots
397: Community Forums
398: Community Forums
399: Home
400: Community Forums
401: News Archive
402: Home
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Member Screenshots
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Member Screenshots
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Photo Gallery
415: Community Forums
416: Home
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Community Forums
421: Member Screenshots
422: Community Forums
423: Community Forums
424: Photo Gallery
425: Community Forums
426: Downloads
427: Photo Gallery
428: Community Forums
429: Community Forums
430: Community Forums
431: Home
432: Community Forums
433: Home
434: Community Forums
435: Statistics
436: Community Forums
437: Downloads
438: Community Forums
439: Member Screenshots
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Photo Gallery
443: Member Screenshots
444: Statistics
445: Downloads
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Downloads
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Community Forums
453: Home
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Member Screenshots
457: Home
458: Downloads
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Home
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Member Screenshots
465: Photo Gallery
466: Community Forums
467: Home
468: News Archive
469: Community Forums
470: Member Screenshots
471: Statistics
472: Community Forums
473: Member Screenshots
474: Home
475: Community Forums
476: Community Forums
477: Photo Gallery
478: Member Screenshots
479: Home
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Photo Gallery
484: Community Forums
485: Your Account
486: Photo Gallery
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Home
492: Home
493: Community Forums
494: Photo Gallery
495: Community Forums
496: Photo Gallery
497: Member Screenshots
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Downloads
501: Home
502: Photo Gallery
503: Your Account
504: News Archive
505: Member Screenshots
506: Community Forums
507: Member Screenshots
508: Community Forums
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: News Archive
514: Photo Gallery
515: Downloads
516: Community Forums
517: News Archive
518: Statistics
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Community Forums
526: Downloads
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Photo Gallery
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Home
535: Home
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Home
540: Photo Gallery
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: News
544: Downloads
545: Community Forums
546: Photo Gallery
547: Photo Gallery
548: Member Screenshots
549: Community Forums
550: Community Forums
551: Community Forums
552: Photo Gallery
553: Photo Gallery
554: Photo Gallery
555: Photo Gallery
556: Photo Gallery
557: Downloads
558: Community Forums
559: Photo Gallery
560: Photo Gallery
561: Photo Gallery
562: Photo Gallery
563: Community Forums
564: Downloads
565: Photo Gallery
566: Photo Gallery
567: Photo Gallery
568: Downloads
569: Community Forums
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Photo Gallery
573: News
574: Photo Gallery
575: Photo Gallery
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Downloads
580: News Archive
581: Member Screenshots
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Community Forums
585: Home
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Member Screenshots
590: Home
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: Community Forums
594: Photo Gallery
595: Home
596: Home
597: Downloads
598: Photo Gallery
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Community Forums
604: Community Forums
605: Photo Gallery
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Downloads
611: Community Forums
612: Community Forums
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Community Forums
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Community Forums
628: Community Forums
629: Your Account
630: Community Forums
631: Home
632: Home
633: Community Forums
634: Photo Gallery
635: Photo Gallery
636: Home
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Photo Gallery
641: Downloads
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Home
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Community Forums
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: Member Screenshots
651: Community Forums
652: Statistics
653: Community Forums
654: Downloads
655: Community Forums
656: Member Screenshots
657: Photo Gallery
658: Home
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Photo Gallery
662: Community Forums
663: Home
664: Photo Gallery
665: Photo Gallery
666: News
667: Community Forums
668: Photo Gallery
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Photo Gallery
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page Previous  1, 2
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:00 pm
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

[Okay I thought I sent this a few minutes ago but doesn't seem to have made it through the network to the board]

Along these lines I wonder if TACOM is interested in finding out about vehicles they believe are at places that we have found out are not there? Do they care if there records show an M4 at Hockension DE that we know isn't?

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
armyjunk2
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
Posts: 1416

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:28 pm
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

Yes they do, and when you finish the updates to Neil's list I will send it to TACOM, so everyone hit the road this weekend. Seriously, I will send the updated list to them.....I traded Neil's list and my WWI artillery list to them for the tank list.......


BTW any WWI artillery you all see I wouldn't mind a pic and a serial number if you see one
Back to top
View user's profile
armyjunk2
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
Posts: 1416

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

Bob, is there anyway to tell where the Hockension tank went?? or is it just gone? The TACOM list can be really off on old things.....maybe we can keep track of whats not there also....
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:41 am
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

- armyjunk2
Yes they do, and when you finish the updates to Neil's list I will send it to TACOM, so everyone hit the road this weekend. Seriously, I will send the updated list to them.....I traded Neil's list and my WWI artillery list to them for the tank list.......


BTW any WWI artillery you all see I wouldn't mind a pic and a serial number if you see one


Wait a minute we don't work on a 'finish the updates this weekend kind of schedule. I've been flogging it some each day and I'm barely through getting decent contact locations for Pennsylvania & Maryland

What we really need is a process. A point of contact that wants to get updates as they are discovered. That is part of the problem with lists like this (as you well know) They grow stale if not regularly updated. Since I didn't win the MegaMillions last week I can't devote full time to it. I'm making contingency lists so that as I make trips over the next year or so I'll be able to quickly chack and see what short sidetrips I can make to check out some items on the list. There are M60s that JoeD has asked about a year or so ago that are still in the 'To Do' list because I haven't been in that area since.

But I would like to know a way that we can make inputs that will correct mistakes

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:52 am
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

- armyjunk2
Bob, is there anyway to tell where the Hockension tank went?? or is it just gone? The TACOM list can be really off on old things.....maybe we can keep track of whats not there also....


I guess the discussion was in email or onthe G104 list

There isn't an M-4 there it is an M42 Duster. Kurt Laughlin or Joe DeMarco checked it out. Now whether there was ever an M4 there is a question. Like the AL at Roebling NJ. Neil showed theer being an M4 there that I checked out last January. They had an M60 which was also on Neils list butthe couple folks I talked to didn't think they had ever had another tank. I'm sure there are many other cases like this.

There is also the touchy subject of places that have tanks that aren't on the list. Are they not on there because of sloppy record keeping or did the vehicle come from another source? That can be very sensitive with some groups who are afraid that 'The Government may take our tank' And I have heard stories of squabbles between groups and teh Army about who owns a specific tank. It seems that over the years tanks have been put out as monuments in a variety of ways. Often the exact conditions were probably only known (or mis understood) by the people that put it out at the time.

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
armyjunk2
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
Posts: 1416

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:18 am
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

seems the VFW doesn't know the difference between a M4 Sherman and a M42 Duster, they reported a M4 Sherman in good condition. But it will be corrected, good catch.........
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:43 am
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

- armyjunk2
seems the VFW doesn't know the difference between a M4 Sherman and a M42 Duster, they reported a M4 Sherman in good condition. But it will be corrected, good catch.........


Interesting - brings in to question how this list was created.

I assumed when someone in teh Army approved a request for a display vehicle 9or other item) the tasking of TACOM to supply an artefact would cause an entry to be mnade that 'Item X serial number nnn' had been supplied to the organization. that would provide some accountability to the powers that be that someone had accepted custody of the item.

Of course based on hand receipts signed I am probably still 'in posesion of' at least 12 sets of ECM gear for F-15s Rolling Eyes

May be Curmudgions In Armor INC could get a gov't contract to survey, validate, and monitor the tanks that the US Army has placed out on display. If we do it right maybe we can get someone to pay us to go look at tanks

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
armyjunk2
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 22, 2006
Posts: 1416

PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:57 am
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

I already suggested that job for me, no funding available
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

But given the current paranoia (excuse me concern) about the possibility of terrorist activity this should probably be funded by the Dept of Homeland Security. After all we wouldn't expect the Army to checkup on themselves would we Rolling Eyes

And this is obviously too big of a job for one person. We need to establish an entire staff People assigned to each field office, a central data consolidation effort, the Documentation and Publishing section. And of course ther has to be a training section to make sure we know what tanks look like as well as a QA section to make sure all the other sections do everything by the book Wink

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])


Last edited by bsmart on Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:19 am
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

From AR 700-131 (available for download at www.apd.army.mil/pdffi..._131.pdf):

"Commander, TACOM is the responsible official for the Army Donation Program and the Ceremonial Rifle Program and will maintain a central registry for all Army donations under 10 USC 2572."

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:53 am
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

- bsmart
May be Curmudgions In Armor INC could get a gov't contract to survey, validate, and monitor the tanks that the US Army has placed out on display. If we do it right maybe we can get someone to pay us to go look at tanks


Leave it to the Air Force guy to make sure the funding angle is covered. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2067
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:55 pm
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

Bob Wrote:
Wait a minute we don't work on a 'finish the updates this weekend kind of schedule. I've been flogging it some each day and I'm barely through getting decent contact locations for Pennsylvania & Maryland


I know what you mean, I've been going through the list and picking out all the ones I can check on, I've come up with almost 100 between all the states I travel in. Just getting good maps to speed up the procees is time consuming

There is also the touchy subject of places that have tanks that aren't on the list. Are they not on there because of sloppy record keeping or did the vehicle come from another source? That can be very sensitive with some groups who are afraid that 'The Government may take our tank' And I have heard stories of squabbles between groups and the Army about who owns a specific tank.


I usually try to go in uniform (my advantage) which gives me an air of "Officialdom" . There are also quite a few tanks out there that came for the USMC through the Departmant of the Navy, so just because it's not on the list doesn't mean it should be. And yes, some folks can get pretty mad when they think they might loose their tank after they spent some serious money on it. Unfortunately it's no different than receiving stolen property, you still loose. Gotta have some sort of provenance like an antique car to prove how you got it to avoid some serious problems

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:53 pm
Post subject: Re: Crosschecking TACOM list and AFVNews register (Neils list)

- Joe_D

I know what you mean, I've been going through the list and picking out all the ones I can check on, I've come up with almost 100 between all the states I travel in. Just getting good maps to speed up the procees is time consuming

Joe D


One the fields I've added in my 'enhanced list' is a Google Map Reference. I've had pretty good luck grabing the VFW or AL post, City, and state out of the spreadsheet and dropping it in the search for line of google maps. In PA it has come up with a street address about 70% of the time. Then I click the 'link to this place' and copy that entry into a field in the spreadsheet. That way I can go back to the map whenever and get directions or just look at the map. Sometimes I've had to massage the search tring (remove the post # or just look for the town)

After borrowing my Brother in Laws Garmin on the trip to NJ last month I'm thinking about getting one. I wonder if I can figure a way to bulk load all the addresses from the enhanced list or can we get Garmin to make a special Curmudgions edition

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 2 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page Previous  1, 2



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum