±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: cgsimpson
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6645

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 783
Total: 783
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Home
04: Photo Gallery
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Photo Gallery
08: Community Forums
09: Community Forums
10: Community Forums
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Home
15: Community Forums
16: Photo Gallery
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Photo Gallery
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Home
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Home
28: Your Account
29: Home
30: Home
31: Photo Gallery
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Photo Gallery
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: Community Forums
39: Home
40: Community Forums
41: Photo Gallery
42: Community Forums
43: Your Account
44: Community Forums
45: Photo Gallery
46: Downloads
47: Community Forums
48: Home
49: Community Forums
50: Photo Gallery
51: Statistics
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Home
55: Community Forums
56: Your Account
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Downloads
60: Community Forums
61: Photo Gallery
62: Community Forums
63: Home
64: Home
65: Member Screenshots
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Home
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: Photo Gallery
76: Photo Gallery
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Statistics
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Home
87: Photo Gallery
88: Member Screenshots
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Photo Gallery
92: Home
93: Home
94: CPGlang
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Home
98: Home
99: Community Forums
100: Home
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Home
104: Community Forums
105: CPGlang
106: Home
107: Home
108: Community Forums
109: Home
110: Community Forums
111: Home
112: Community Forums
113: Home
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Your Account
119: Community Forums
120: Photo Gallery
121: Community Forums
122: Photo Gallery
123: CPGlang
124: Community Forums
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: Community Forums
129: Community Forums
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Your Account
142: Photo Gallery
143: Home
144: Community Forums
145: Statistics
146: Community Forums
147: Statistics
148: Community Forums
149: CPGlang
150: Home
151: Your Account
152: Downloads
153: Downloads
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Home
158: Community Forums
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Photo Gallery
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Home
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Home
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: Home
176: Community Forums
177: Statistics
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Home
181: Home
182: Member Screenshots
183: Photo Gallery
184: Photo Gallery
185: Community Forums
186: CPGlang
187: Community Forums
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Home
191: Community Forums
192: Photo Gallery
193: Your Account
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Photo Gallery
200: News
201: Downloads
202: Downloads
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Community Forums
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: News Archive
215: Community Forums
216: Photo Gallery
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Home
224: Statistics
225: Your Account
226: News
227: Community Forums
228: Your Account
229: Community Forums
230: Member Screenshots
231: Photo Gallery
232: Photo Gallery
233: Home
234: Community Forums
235: Your Account
236: Community Forums
237: Home
238: Community Forums
239: Photo Gallery
240: Your Account
241: Downloads
242: Home
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: Community Forums
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Photo Gallery
252: Photo Gallery
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Downloads
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: Photo Gallery
268: Home
269: Community Forums
270: Community Forums
271: Your Account
272: Home
273: Photo Gallery
274: Community Forums
275: Statistics
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Home
292: Photo Gallery
293: Community Forums
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: CPGlang
298: Home
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Downloads
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Photo Gallery
313: Photo Gallery
314: Photo Gallery
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Home
321: Home
322: Community Forums
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Community Forums
326: Photo Gallery
327: Downloads
328: Downloads
329: Community Forums
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Downloads
336: Home
337: Community Forums
338: Community Forums
339: Downloads
340: Photo Gallery
341: Community Forums
342: Home
343: Community Forums
344: Community Forums
345: Community Forums
346: Photo Gallery
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Downloads
354: Member Screenshots
355: Home
356: Photo Gallery
357: Community Forums
358: Community Forums
359: Photo Gallery
360: Downloads
361: Downloads
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Your Account
365: Community Forums
366: Downloads
367: Photo Gallery
368: Home
369: Community Forums
370: Community Forums
371: Community Forums
372: Community Forums
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: Home
376: Photo Gallery
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Photo Gallery
383: Community Forums
384: Photo Gallery
385: Community Forums
386: Community Forums
387: Photo Gallery
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Community Forums
391: News Archive
392: Your Account
393: Community Forums
394: Downloads
395: Community Forums
396: Community Forums
397: Photo Gallery
398: Community Forums
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Home
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Downloads
411: Community Forums
412: Photo Gallery
413: Photo Gallery
414: Community Forums
415: Statistics
416: Home
417: Community Forums
418: Home
419: Community Forums
420: Photo Gallery
421: Home
422: Home
423: Community Forums
424: Photo Gallery
425: Home
426: Downloads
427: Photo Gallery
428: Community Forums
429: Photo Gallery
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Community Forums
433: Photo Gallery
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Photo Gallery
437: Community Forums
438: Your Account
439: Downloads
440: Community Forums
441: Community Forums
442: Photo Gallery
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Photo Gallery
446: Photo Gallery
447: Home
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Your Account
452: Home
453: Community Forums
454: News
455: Community Forums
456: Home
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Photo Gallery
461: Home
462: Photo Gallery
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Home
468: Community Forums
469: Photo Gallery
470: Community Forums
471: Downloads
472: Photo Gallery
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Home
476: Community Forums
477: Community Forums
478: Home
479: Downloads
480: Community Forums
481: Photo Gallery
482: Community Forums
483: Your Account
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Home
493: Photo Gallery
494: Community Forums
495: Photo Gallery
496: Photo Gallery
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Photo Gallery
500: Photo Gallery
501: Community Forums
502: Community Forums
503: Photo Gallery
504: Home
505: Community Forums
506: Home
507: Community Forums
508: Photo Gallery
509: Community Forums
510: Photo Gallery
511: Community Forums
512: Photo Gallery
513: Downloads
514: Community Forums
515: Downloads
516: Downloads
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Your Account
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Home
523: Community Forums
524: Community Forums
525: Photo Gallery
526: Photo Gallery
527: Community Forums
528: Downloads
529: Home
530: Photo Gallery
531: Community Forums
532: Photo Gallery
533: CPGlang
534: Downloads
535: Your Account
536: Photo Gallery
537: Community Forums
538: Downloads
539: Community Forums
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Photo Gallery
544: Community Forums
545: Home
546: Community Forums
547: Community Forums
548: Photo Gallery
549: Community Forums
550: Home
551: Community Forums
552: Your Account
553: Community Forums
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Community Forums
557: Community Forums
558: Photo Gallery
559: Community Forums
560: Home
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Photo Gallery
564: Photo Gallery
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Home
568: Downloads
569: Photo Gallery
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: News Archive
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Downloads
577: Community Forums
578: Community Forums
579: Community Forums
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Photo Gallery
584: Community Forums
585: Photo Gallery
586: Photo Gallery
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Photo Gallery
590: Downloads
591: Community Forums
592: Photo Gallery
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Your Account
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Home
599: Home
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Downloads
604: Home
605: Photo Gallery
606: Photo Gallery
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: News Archive
610: Home
611: Home
612: Photo Gallery
613: Community Forums
614: Member Screenshots
615: Member Screenshots
616: Photo Gallery
617: Community Forums
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Home
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Statistics
628: Photo Gallery
629: News
630: Community Forums
631: Your Account
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: CPGlang
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Home
639: Community Forums
640: Member Screenshots
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Statistics
645: Community Forums
646: Home
647: Photo Gallery
648: Photo Gallery
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Community Forums
658: Photo Gallery
659: Home
660: Home
661: Statistics
662: News
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Photo Gallery
666: Home
667: Home
668: Home
669: Home
670: Statistics
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: Community Forums
675: Downloads
676: Community Forums
677: Home
678: Home
679: Community Forums
680: Community Forums
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: Community Forums
684: Photo Gallery
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Downloads
690: Downloads
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: Home
694: Home
695: News Archive
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: Community Forums
701: Downloads
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Photo Gallery
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Community Forums
710: News Archive
711: Home
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: CPGlang
715: Photo Gallery
716: Your Account
717: Photo Gallery
718: Home
719: Community Forums
720: Home
721: Photo Gallery
722: Member Screenshots
723: Photo Gallery
724: Photo Gallery
725: Photo Gallery
726: Photo Gallery
727: Home
728: Photo Gallery
729: Community Forums
730: Photo Gallery
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Community Forums
734: Home
735: Photo Gallery
736: Community Forums
737: Your Account
738: Statistics
739: Community Forums
740: Home
741: Photo Gallery
742: Downloads
743: Community Forums
744: Downloads
745: Home
746: Home
747: Community Forums
748: Home
749: Photo Gallery
750: Photo Gallery
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: Community Forums
754: Community Forums
755: Downloads
756: Photo Gallery
757: Community Forums
758: Home
759: Community Forums
760: Community Forums
761: Community Forums
762: Community Forums
763: Community Forums
764: Community Forums
765: Community Forums
766: Community Forums
767: Member Screenshots
768: Downloads
769: Community Forums
770: Photo Gallery
771: Community Forums
772: Community Forums
773: Community Forums
774: Photo Gallery
775: Community Forums
776: Home
777: Community Forums
778: Community Forums
779: Community Forums
780: Community Forums
781: Community Forums
782: Photo Gallery
783: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:45 pm
Post subject: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Hi Folks!

I was looking through the Webshots Dot Com site for a pair of colored photos of that US M4A1 that was recovered off Omaha beach.

While using the site SEARCH function, I ran acossed this vehicle. Have no idea who took or posted these photo to the site.
Warning: pictures are a bit large which is why I didn't post them to this DG, sorry Folks.

i41.photobucket.com/al...murm-1.jpg

i41.photobucket.com/al...urRRcl.jpg

i41.photobucket.com/al...urmayb.jpg

i41.photobucket.com/al...urFLlo.jpg

Not sure, but I think it is at Samur.

Niel has posted pictures of a M4A2 76 mm DD with the HVSS (E8) suspension. But a M4A1 76 mm with VVSS is a new version of the DD to me.

Speaking of Webshots Dot Com, while using the SEARCH function using "France" and "Tank", I found 24 pages with 1,669 photos. Now there are some that have nothing to do with tanks in France, but there are a lot of military related pictures. There is about five pages of a photos titled "Barbarossa" which has a lot of Eastern Front WWII black and white shots along with a few WW II photos from all over the globe.

If you have some time to kill, check it out.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

P.S.
Don't try searching with "DD" and "Tank". You get a large number of pictures of someone's friend called DD along with a few destoryer (as in ship) pictures.

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:38 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

That is at Saumur, it's PTIF#114 from my book on Preserved Tanks in France:



In the book I wrote:

"This is a Mark IIAY, modified from an M4A1 (76)W. It is in poor condition and is missing its flotation screen, muzzle brake and both propellers."

I don't have any other information on it, but it's certainly an unusual beast.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:42 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

THere has GOT to be an interesting story on this fellow! Clearly a DD hull, but what's that 76mm turret doing on it?

It defies "conventional wisdom" on the DD tanks and the 76mm tanks. It would be interesting to know more about the sinking and the exact date.

Gary
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:17 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Though unusual, it is of course not entirely unique:


_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:20 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

That is a very old picture of the M4A2 HVSS 76mm DD test tank at Aberdeen. The picture was taken on the old 'Mile of Tanks' but it has been sitting in the Belair street storage yard for at least 8 years but probably more than 10 years. Neil has much more recent pictures that were taken during one the tour I led of the Belair Street yard during AMPs this spring (The first time enthusiasts have been able to get into that yard in years) There are probably a bunch of other pictures of it from that tour. It was one of the most popular items in that yard (But everything in the yard was popular that day!)

The tanks was tested for possible use during the Invasion of Japan. I suspect that if it was deployed it would have been deployed in the M4A3 version and that the M4A2 was used for test purposes because it was more available without impacting issue of the more desired A3 version

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:12 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

The picture is pretty old - I probably took it in the 1982 or 1983.

OT, while looking up Sherman DDs I found this very interesting link:

www.strijdbewijs.nl/ta...araeng.htm

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:55 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Hi Trevor! Hi Folks!

- TrevorLarkum

.....while looking up Sherman DDs I found this very interesting link:


Very interesting link! Thank You Trevor!

Those DD Tank photos by Robert Capa has puzzled me for years. Some time back I started collecting photos and information about the DD system with the hope that someday I would be able to build a 1/35 scale model of one with the screen up. So far, it's still in the planning stages.

Those "chimney" or "rectangle shapes" are a problem.

By chimney, I wonder if the writer MIGHT have been talking about the rerouted air flow at the the rear of the tank. The M4A1's, and M4A4's had an air exhaust under the upper rear hull which over hung the lower rear hull. On the DD's this exhaust was below the bottom edge of the screens. There was something like the lower section of a wading truck that redirected the airflow from it normal downward flow and diverted it upward and into the inside rear area of the of the screen.

Now for Robert Capa's photo. I don't think those "rectangle shapes" are on those tanks. I think they are something that is on the beach on the other side of those DD's.

Look at the left DD. The one that is sideways. I think we are looking at an opened splite type of TC hatch. If that rectangle is on that tank, it's mounted on the rear of the turret and not the hull. It's front edge is in line with the back edge of the TC hatch.

Look at the right DD. The one were we can see the props. Again we can see an open splite type of TC hatch. In that photo, the rectangle is to the left of the TC's hatch and centered on the vehicle.

If those "chimneys" are mounted on those two DD's, then they are sticking up from the bustle area of the turrets. The TC stood on a metal platform that was welded onto the top rear edge of the bustle area and behind the TC hatch area. He had a pipe to hold onto with one hand and the tiller for the props with his other hand. A LARGE "chimney" that would be mounted on the center rear area of the turrret's bustle would be a massive blind spot for the TC when he was standing outside the turret and driving the tank.

For a long time I wonder what those things where that look like they are mounted on those two DD's. After collecting a folder full of limited info on DD's and the screen system, I think that those things are on the other side of those two vehicles and are NOT mounted on them.

If I understand the story correctly, the author is Dutch. The crews he interviewed would be Americans (?). Maybe the term chimney is something that got lost in the translatation to Dutch and then back to English?

A note about the number 10 on that tank with the wading trunks.
That vehicle should be a bulldozer tank. The 10 stands for landing craft gap number 10. That dozer was detailed to the Special Engineer Task Force (SETF) Gap Team number 10. It's mission was to support the Navy engineers below the water line as they opened up their area of the gap. After that, the dozers were to support the Army engineers as they cleared the gap above the water line. After the gaps were opened up, most of the bulldozers would return to control of their assigned tank battalions.

Gap 10 was planned for the right (looking at the beach from the sea) edge of Easy Red Beach. Robert Capa's photos were taken in the area between Easy-Red and Fox-Green. That would be at the left (again, looking at the beach from the sea) end of Easy-Red and in the area of Gap 15. About 1,400 yards left of where it should have landed.

My 2 cents on DD chimneys and a little info on what I have learned about D-Day bulldozer tanks.
Sgt, Scouts Out!

P.S.
The info about the bulldozer tanks comes from "Spearheading D-Day, American Special Units in Normandy" by Jonathan Gawne, Histoire @ Collections, Paris, 1998, ISBN 2 908 182 793. For anyone who is interested in the stories of D-Day, that book is HIGHLY Recommended by Stephen "Cookie" Sewell in a review he wrote for Armor Magazine in the January-February 2000 issue, page 51. It corrects and explains a number of facts that Cornelius Ryan got wrong in his book, "The Longest Day".

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:31 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

The Dutch poster is quoting from the novel "Hell Has No Heroes", originally published as "Barbara" ca. 1951. A great read on an American tank crew in Europe by Wayne Robinson who actually served with the 743rd Tank Battalion. A number of incidents in the novel parallel those in the 743rd's published history. While Mr. Robinson DID actually serve with the tank battalion, I have found a number of minor "flaws" in his work. In the novel, Robinson implies tyhat Barbara is a welded hull tank. He refers to the "new" turtle-hulled tanks arriving later. Any DD nut knows that the US DD's were based on M4A1s with cast upper hulls. I am also wondering if his memory confused the "chimneys" or wading stacks to us, of the deep-water equipped Shermans with the DD tanks.

Until these photos, I only knew of the M4A2 DD prototype, which was the only 76mm DD tank I ever heard of (except for the French M4A1E8's mocked up as DD tanks for movie "The Longest Day"). I remember seeing some photos of that M4A2 under test.

Minor trivia - the M4A1 76W DD tank used the complete sprocket for the rear idlers. The US DD's (that I have seen in photos) dropped the toothed sprocket and used a modified version of the regular idler.

Gary B
Back to top
View user's profile
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:30 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

I think what has happened here, is the same problem with a couple other threads. People are way over thinking this. It's a tank at a museum. Museums are notorious for cobbling together tanks. They proably just droped a T-23 turret on a M4A1DD.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:25 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Hi Gary! Hi Folks!

- binder001

Minor trivia - the M4A1 76W DD tank used the complete sprocket for the rear idlers. The US DD's (that I have seen in photos) dropped the toothed sprocket and used a modified version of the regular idler.
Gary B


I'm not so sure of that Gary.
The idlers are NOT complete sprockets but "modified" idlers that have a ring mounted on the spokes on the outside edge of the idlers. There is no drive plate mounted on the inside of the idlers. There no center sprocket hub with holes to mount drive plates on both sides. Therefore it is not a "complete sprocket".

What we are seeing on the US DD's is the modified idlers were the drive plate has been removed and is exposing the mounting ring with the holes for the bolts.

My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:48 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

I'll have to check my copy of Barbara this weekend but I thought it came out much later than 1951. I picked up the paperbackHell Has No Heroes a long while back at a used book sale. I noticed that it had originally been titled Barbara but didn't think much about it. Then at a junk shop/antique store (more like a barn) on a side road outside Gettysburg there was a table of books and scanning the titles I saw Barbara on an old hardback. I picked it up and sure enough it was 'the one'. I'm pretty sure it has the author's bio in it. I'll pull it out and check teh copyright this weekend but I think it is late 50s or maybe even 1961 (That date sticks in my head)

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:58 am
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

- Roy_A_Lingle

If those "chimneys" are mounted on those two DD's, then they are sticking up from the bustle area of the turrets.


I think you may be right with your general conclusions, but it may be that this is a possible solution, that a simple 'chimney' was built up around the TC's position, for protection or some other reason. It fascinates me that after all this time there are still some things to learn and mysteries to resolve.


- binder001
Until these photos, I only knew of the M4A2 DD prototype, which was the only 76mm DD tank I ever heard of (except for the French M4A1E8's mocked up as DD tanks for movie "The Longest Day"). I remember seeing some photos of that M4A2 under test.

Minor trivia - the M4A1 76W DD tank used the complete sprocket for the rear idlers. The US DD's (that I have seen in photos) dropped the toothed sprocket and used


If I can find any more, close-up, pictures I'll post them here.


- tanker2010
I think what has happened here, is the same problem with a couple other threads. People are way over thinking this. It's a tank at a museum. Museums are notorious for cobbling together tanks. They proably just droped a T-23 turret on a M4A1DD.


Don't worry, I think that's the unspoken thought we all have in mind - no-one here is discussing how did a 76mm DD take part in D-Day.

_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:50 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

I'm not so sure of that Gary.
The idlers are NOT complete sprockets but "modified" idlers that have a ring mounted on the spokes on the outside edge of the idlers. There is no drive plate mounted on the inside of the idlers. There no center sprocket hub with holes to mount drive plates on both sides. Therefore it is not a "complete sprocket".

You are quite right - I misspoke (miswrote?). The US tanks lack the toothed sprocket drive ring. The idlers don't look like Sherman sprockets with the toothed ring removed. There is still a track contact surface, not unlike an idler wheel. I have not seen that on any Sherman sprocket that I have run across, hence my reference to a "modified idler". The sprockets support the track with the teeth on the end connectors, but a VVSS or HVSS idler contacts the track block surface. The DD idler SEEMS to combine the idler wheel with a mounting ring or such surface that allowed the use of the toothed sprocket.

Gary
Back to top
View user's profile
TrevorLarkum
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Sep 16, 2007
Posts: 1596
Location: Northampton, England
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:31 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

Presumably the idea was just to give the idler sufficient extra grip so it could power the screws without slipping.

Here's a view on the one at Courseulles (PTIF#9):


_________________
Trevor

Dr Trevor Larkum
Preserved Tanks: PreservedTanks.com
Armour Archive: ArmourArchive.co.uk
EVs
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:28 pm
Post subject: Re: M4A1 76 mm VVSS DD tank?

- TrevorLarkum


Don't worry, I think that's the unspoken thought we all have in mind - no-one here is discussing how did a 76mm DD take part in D-Day.


I understand that, that's not what I'm saying. I think it's just something they threw together at Samur.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum