±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 485
Total: 485
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Photo Gallery
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Home
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: Home
10: Community Forums
11: Photo Gallery
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Member Screenshots
16: Community Forums
17: Photo Gallery
18: Photo Gallery
19: Home
20: Home
21: Home
22: Home
23: Home
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Home
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: Photo Gallery
33: Community Forums
34: Photo Gallery
35: Home
36: Community Forums
37: Community Forums
38: News Archive
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Photo Gallery
45: Home
46: Community Forums
47: Home
48: Home
49: Home
50: Community Forums
51: Home
52: Home
53: Community Forums
54: Photo Gallery
55: Community Forums
56: Photo Gallery
57: Photo Gallery
58: Community Forums
59: Downloads
60: Photo Gallery
61: Downloads
62: Home
63: Home
64: Community Forums
65: Community Forums
66: Photo Gallery
67: Home
68: Photo Gallery
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Community Forums
72: Photo Gallery
73: Photo Gallery
74: Community Forums
75: News Archive
76: Member Screenshots
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Home
80: Photo Gallery
81: Photo Gallery
82: Photo Gallery
83: Home
84: Community Forums
85: Tell a Friend
86: Community Forums
87: Photo Gallery
88: Community Forums
89: Home
90: Community Forums
91: Community Forums
92: Your Account
93: Community Forums
94: Photo Gallery
95: News
96: News Archive
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Home
106: Community Forums
107: Home
108: Photo Gallery
109: Photo Gallery
110: Photo Gallery
111: News Archive
112: Community Forums
113: Statistics
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Photo Gallery
117: Statistics
118: Home
119: Home
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Photo Gallery
123: Home
124: Home
125: Home
126: Photo Gallery
127: Home
128: Home
129: Downloads
130: Home
131: News
132: Home
133: News
134: Home
135: Community Forums
136: Home
137: Photo Gallery
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Community Forums
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: News Archive
146: Photo Gallery
147: Home
148: Photo Gallery
149: Downloads
150: Community Forums
151: Home
152: Photo Gallery
153: Community Forums
154: Community Forums
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Photo Gallery
158: Home
159: Photo Gallery
160: Member Screenshots
161: Community Forums
162: Photo Gallery
163: Community Forums
164: Downloads
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Your Account
171: Photo Gallery
172: Community Forums
173: Home
174: Downloads
175: Photo Gallery
176: Photo Gallery
177: Photo Gallery
178: Home
179: Community Forums
180: Downloads
181: Downloads
182: Home
183: Photo Gallery
184: Downloads
185: Home
186: Photo Gallery
187: Home
188: Community Forums
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Photo Gallery
192: Community Forums
193: Statistics
194: Photo Gallery
195: Community Forums
196: Your Account
197: Photo Gallery
198: Home
199: Downloads
200: Home
201: Home
202: Community Forums
203: Your Account
204: Photo Gallery
205: Community Forums
206: Member Screenshots
207: Home
208: Photo Gallery
209: Community Forums
210: Community Forums
211: Community Forums
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Photo Gallery
215: Home
216: Home
217: Community Forums
218: News Archive
219: News Archive
220: Community Forums
221: Community Forums
222: Home
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Home
226: Downloads
227: Photo Gallery
228: Your Account
229: Community Forums
230: Home
231: Home
232: Community Forums
233: Photo Gallery
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Statistics
238: Community Forums
239: Community Forums
240: News Archive
241: Community Forums
242: Home
243: Community Forums
244: Home
245: Photo Gallery
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: News Archive
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Photo Gallery
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Photo Gallery
255: Home
256: Member Screenshots
257: Member Screenshots
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Photo Gallery
263: Home
264: Home
265: Photo Gallery
266: Photo Gallery
267: Home
268: Community Forums
269: Member Screenshots
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Home
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Home
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Photo Gallery
282: Home
283: Home
284: Home
285: Community Forums
286: Home
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Downloads
293: Home
294: Photo Gallery
295: Community Forums
296: Home
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Community Forums
300: Community Forums
301: Member Screenshots
302: Photo Gallery
303: Home
304: Community Forums
305: Home
306: Photo Gallery
307: Home
308: Home
309: Photo Gallery
310: Home
311: Home
312: Home
313: Home
314: Downloads
315: Photo Gallery
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Community Forums
319: Community Forums
320: Photo Gallery
321: Home
322: Home
323: Home
324: Home
325: Your Account
326: Community Forums
327: Photo Gallery
328: Community Forums
329: Photo Gallery
330: Member Screenshots
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Photo Gallery
336: Community Forums
337: LinkToUs
338: Home
339: Member Screenshots
340: Photo Gallery
341: Photo Gallery
342: Downloads
343: Home
344: Member Screenshots
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Community Forums
348: Community Forums
349: Home
350: Home
351: Community Forums
352: Photo Gallery
353: Home
354: Community Forums
355: Photo Gallery
356: Community Forums
357: Home
358: Photo Gallery
359: Community Forums
360: Community Forums
361: Home
362: Photo Gallery
363: Community Forums
364: News Archive
365: Community Forums
366: Community Forums
367: Community Forums
368: Community Forums
369: Photo Gallery
370: Home
371: Home
372: Home
373: Community Forums
374: Community Forums
375: News Archive
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Home
381: Community Forums
382: Home
383: News
384: Home
385: Downloads
386: Home
387: Community Forums
388: Photo Gallery
389: Member Screenshots
390: Community Forums
391: Community Forums
392: Home
393: Community Forums
394: Community Forums
395: Home
396: Home
397: Home
398: Photo Gallery
399: Community Forums
400: Community Forums
401: Photo Gallery
402: Community Forums
403: Home
404: Community Forums
405: Home
406: Community Forums
407: Home
408: Home
409: Home
410: Photo Gallery
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Member Screenshots
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Community Forums
420: Home
421: Home
422: Community Forums
423: Home
424: Home
425: News
426: Community Forums
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: Member Screenshots
430: Home
431: News
432: Home
433: Home
434: Home
435: Community Forums
436: News Archive
437: Community Forums
438: Home
439: Downloads
440: Member Screenshots
441: Community Forums
442: Community Forums
443: Community Forums
444: Photo Gallery
445: Home
446: Photo Gallery
447: Home
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Community Forums
451: Community Forums
452: Home
453: Community Forums
454: Community Forums
455: News Archive
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Home
459: Photo Gallery
460: Photo Gallery
461: Community Forums
462: Home
463: Home
464: Community Forums
465: Home
466: Member Screenshots
467: Community Forums
468: Community Forums
469: Photo Gallery
470: Community Forums
471: Community Forums
472: Home
473: Community Forums
474: Home
475: Downloads
476: Photo Gallery
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Home
485: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
M113 #1?????
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:05 am
Post subject: M113 #1?????

okay, now i have lost it! the MC ranks the M113 as the "the greatest infantry fighting vehicle of all time"!!!
what the F!!! it is a refrigerator!! it is made out of aluminum!!!
it is a taxi!!

what is wrong with these people.... let alone the fact that the narrator cant properly pronounce any of the foreign vehicle names...
sr
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
toadmanstankpictures
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 704

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:18 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

Did Sparky write the script for the show?

_________________
Chris "toadman" Hughes
www.toadmanstankpictures.com
www.cafepress.com/toad...ksandstuff
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website
Dontos
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3436
Location: Vine Grove, KY
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:38 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- SHAWN
okay, now i have lost it! the MC ranks the M113 as the "the greatest infantry fighting vehicle of all time"!!!
what the F!!! it is a refrigerator!! it is made out of aluminum!!!
it is a taxi!!

what is wrong with these people.... let alone the fact that the narrator cant properly pronounce any of the foreign vehicle names...
sr


Take a deep breath....

I've seen the show, and as I remember its presentation, it made sense.

Of course I make this statement, eventhough SPARKY's attempts to have the (unnamed) M113 placed on a pedistol and require all humanity to bow down to Lt Gen Gavins invention. (apoligies to the memory of Gen Gavin)

What do you expect from The History Channel? Besides those shows are quite dated, and the Abrams has been aquitted of its former declared non-relevance, the M113 (along with tons of add on armor) continues to serve a mission which no other vehicle is capable of doing due to its available quantity.

Very few Main Battle Tank's IN CURRENT SERVICE have endured the level of combat service that the Abrams has, and maintained its place as one of the Best in the modern era. The Challanger II is perhaps the only other to keep its name untarnished. Oh, and perhaps the Leo I can be considered too, most other MBT's are either un-tested in combat or have failed miserably.

JMHO
Don
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:05 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- Dontos
- SHAWN
okay, now i have lost it! the MC ranks the M113 as the "the greatest infantry fighting vehicle of all time"!!!
what the F!!! it is a refrigerator!! it is made out of aluminum!!!
it is a taxi!!

what is wrong with these people.... let alone the fact that the narrator cant properly pronounce any of the foreign vehicle names...
sr


Take a deep breath....

I've seen the show, and as I remember its presentation, it made sense.

Of course I make this statement, eventhough SPARKY's attempts to have the (unnamed) M113 placed on a pedistol and require all humanity to bow down to Lt Gen Gavins invention. (apoligies to the memory of Gen Gavin)

What do you expect from The History Channel? Besides those shows are quite dated, and the Abrams has been aquitted of its former declared non-relevance, the M113 (along with tons of add on armor) continues to serve a mission which no other vehicle is capable of doing due to its available quantity.

Very few Main Battle Tank's IN CURRENT SERVICE have endured the level of combat service that the Abrams has, and maintained its place as one of the Best in the modern era. The Challanger II is perhaps the only other to keep its name untarnished. Oh, and perhaps the Leo I can be considered too, most other MBT's are either un-tested in combat or have failed miserably.

JMHO
Don


What Don said...and....

While the term "Infantry Fighting Vehicle" is a little broad, it has fulfilled that mission on occasion, and not done badly at it.

More importantly, I'd submit that with over 80,000 built, and with it built under license in numerous countries, been in service with many more countries, and filled so many roles in so many variants for so long that it's not at all a stretch to consider it as a "winner" in this context. Consider a vehicle in it's historical context, not what's the best on the market on the most recent date, that's the test of any item. It certainly isn't the best IFV today, but was that the question?
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:41 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

What were the other vehicles in the Top 10? I'm curious where the BTR and BRDM series placed as well as the M-3 Halftrack and the SdKfz251 as well as the Stryker and the Bradley.

If that segment ran true to form they got points for longevity, combat power, innovation etc. Any multigenerational ranking is tough but I find myself comparing where x ranked compared to y when I see these shows

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Neil_Baumgardner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 3942
Location: Arlington, VA
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:53 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

Yeah, despite the name, it was really top 10 APCs - considering IFVs as a "subclass" (which some do). Me and my friend Kevin had a big debate over IFV vs APC when the show first ran...

Neil
Back to top
View user's profile
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:03 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

where I have a disagreement with this series (Tanks, ships ,bombers, rifles, etc) is that it uses a quantity factor as the basis for deciding a quality factor. If an item is absolutely the best of it's kind, it is just that, whether they produced a single one or 15 million. By that criterion an old four stack, flush deck US destroyer is a greater warship that an Iowa class battleship. To me,the top ten should be the ten best qualativly not numericaly

my two cents

Jeff "Piney" Lewis
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Sabot
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Kentucky
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:20 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

I'd classify the 113 as an APC, not an IFV. Even the Bradley or BMP are truly "light tanks" that can carry infantry inside. While both series enable some fighting by infantrymen inside, their main purpose is to deliver the infantry to a point on the battlefield and then provide direct fire support to the dismounts.

_________________
RobG
Back to top
View user's profile AIM Address
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:45 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- piney
where I have a disagreement with this series (Tanks, ships ,bombers, rifles, etc) is that it uses a quantity factor as the basis for deciding a quality factor. If an item is absolutely the best of it's kind, it is just that, whether they produced a single one or 15 million. By that criterion an old four stack, flush deck US destroyer is a greater warship that an Iowa class battleship. To me,the top ten should be the ten best qualativly not numericaly

my two cents

Jeff "Piney" Lewis


I'm gpoing to disagree with you here. "Quantity has a quality all it's own"

Within a class of weapons the ability to deploy enough items so that it is effective is important. The Sherman/T34 v Panther is a very good example of this. While neither one can match the Panther one on one they were able to compete because both could be produced in volume and deployed and supported so that they were always available in useful quantities while Panthers were never available in enough quantity to keep the units up to strength

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:50 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- bsmart
- piney
where I have a disagreement with this series (Tanks, ships ,bombers, rifles, etc) is that it uses a quantity factor as the basis for deciding a quality factor. If an item is absolutely the best of it's kind, it is just that, whether they produced a single one or 15 million. By that criterion an old four stack, flush deck US destroyer is a greater warship that an Iowa class battleship. To me,the top ten should be the ten best qualativly not numericaly

my two cents

Jeff "Piney" Lewis


I'm gpoing to disagree with you here. "Quantity has a quality all it's own"

Within a class of weapons the ability to deploy enough items so that it is effective is important. The Sherman/T34 v Panther is a very good example of this. While neither one can match the Panther one on one they were able to compete because both could be produced in volume and deployed and supported so that they were always available in useful quantities while Panthers were never available in enough quantity to keep the units up to strength



To add to Bob's point...
And how long were Panthers in service? With how many countries? Built under license where (whether in it's original designation or in a close copy with slight modification and a "name change")? Embraced by how many other services (voluntarily, as opposed to, say, some Warsaw Pact examples) for a variety of roles because of it's versatility and longevity?
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Hellfish6
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Orlando
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:02 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

IIRC this show is about the most 'successful' vehicles, not the best. In that sense, yeah - you could very easily argue that the M113 is the most successful APC. How many wars has it been in? How many countries use it? How many were made. It may be mediocre as an AFV, but it's still wildly successful.
Back to top
View user's profile
SHAWN
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 31, 2006
Posts: 484

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:58 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

yes dontos, thank you, take a deep breathe....
that is all just part of the generation of power before one exhales and puts your fist thru your opponents chest...

no, you are right. but as i had mentioned, it is a show for entertainment value above all else... still gets me aggravated (MHO aside).

i can agree the vehicle has had a very successful life and has done very well. it doesnt fit into the number 1 slot using their contradictory criteria for the basis of their show. the high marks they gave the BMP (survivability, striking power/armament, protection! easily produced) had the M113 beat from the get go... the BMP was like #6. the universal carrier was 7 or 8(?), the M3 halftrack 9(?)...
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Hellfish6
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 09, 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Orlando
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

I'd never consider the BMP, especially the BMP-1 to be a successful AFV. Revolutionary, yes - to an extent. It's got a piss poor armament system - basically a 73mm RPG with terrible accuracy, an AT-3 system that hardly ever worked properly, let alone effectively, had fuel tanks in the door, magnesium armor... the list goes on. I certainly wouldn't call it an effective or successful vehicle. I bet if you go back in time and check out the kill/loss ratios for BMPs you'd find that they've died a whole lot more than they've killed, even discounting the hundreds that the US and UK have wrecked over time.
Back to top
View user's profile
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:53 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

Hi Shawn! Hi Folks!

- SHAWN

okay, now i have lost it! the MC ranks the M113 as the "the greatest infantry fighting vehicle of all time"!!!
it is a refrigerator!!
it is made out of aluminum!!!
it is a taxi!!


It is a refrigerator? All amored vehicles without good heaters are refrigerators.

It is made out of aluminum? So what?
The aluminum is equal to a level of steel protection that the Army was looking for when that vehicle was developed.
They found that the aluminum vehicle was something like 600 pounds lighter that one made out of steel with an equal level of protection. Total weight was very important when that vehicle was layout.

It is a taxi? I would not call my ACAVs from Vietnam taxis. The term Infantry Fighting vehicle does fit that mission profile.

Taxi is a doctrine/mission on how a vehicle is used.

Would I rate the M113 as the world's best IFV? Maybe not, but it would be near the top if it was not number one.

My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:38 am
Post subject: Re: M113 #1?????

- Roy_A_Lingle
Hi Shawn! Hi Folks!

- SHAWN

okay, now i have lost it! the MC ranks the M113 as the "the greatest infantry fighting vehicle of all time"!!!
it is a refrigerator!!
it is made out of aluminum!!!
it is a taxi!!


It is a refrigerator? All amored vehicles without good heaters are refrigerators.

It is made out of aluminum? So what?
The aluminum is equal to a level of steel protection that the Army was looking for when that vehicle was developed.
They found that the aluminum vehicle was something like 600 pounds lighter that one made out of steel with an equal level of protection. Total weight was very important when that vehicle was layout.

It is a taxi? I would not call my ACAVs from Vietnam taxis. The term Infantry Fighting vehicle does fit that mission profile.

Taxi is a doctrine/mission on how a vehicle is used.

Would I rate the M113 as the world's best IFV? Maybe not, but it would be near the top if it was not number one.
My 2 cents,
Sgt, Scouts Out!


What Roy said, but with emphasis on the part in bold, I'd amend/add to say it was all the more remarkable because it wasn't designed to be an Infantry Fighting Vehicle, but was adapted to be one in it's prime, and served that mission with distinction.

Yes, we have some some bias with that regard, but we have some personal experience on which to base it. If I'm not mistaken, Roy came to the M113 as a Cav Scout, but I came to it with the background of a tanker, which gave me even more grounds of skepticism, if you will. I was impressed with the way the vehicle fulfilled it's role and was completely comfortable with it (and I might point out that I was offered command of an M551 Sheridan when I reported to Phu Loi, but declined it in favor of an M113, though I'd never been on one before).
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum