±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 884
Total: 884
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Member Screenshots
04: Photo Gallery
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Member Screenshots
09: Home
10: Downloads
11: Community Forums
12: Community Forums
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Home
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Photo Gallery
25: Community Forums
26: Community Forums
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Community Forums
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Member Screenshots
36: Community Forums
37: Statistics
38: Community Forums
39: News
40: Community Forums
41: Community Forums
42: Home
43: Photo Gallery
44: Home
45: Photo Gallery
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Photo Gallery
49: Community Forums
50: Statistics
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Photo Gallery
55: Community Forums
56: Home
57: Community Forums
58: News Archive
59: Community Forums
60: Photo Gallery
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: News Archive
66: Your Account
67: Photo Gallery
68: Downloads
69: Member Screenshots
70: Community Forums
71: Photo Gallery
72: Home
73: Member Screenshots
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Photo Gallery
78: Community Forums
79: News
80: Home
81: Community Forums
82: Downloads
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Community Forums
86: Photo Gallery
87: News Archive
88: Community Forums
89: Community Forums
90: Community Forums
91: Your Account
92: Community Forums
93: Community Forums
94: Photo Gallery
95: Community Forums
96: Home
97: Community Forums
98: Home
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: Home
104: Community Forums
105: Community Forums
106: Home
107: Community Forums
108: Home
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Home
112: Member Screenshots
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Your Account
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Community Forums
119: Community Forums
120: Search
121: Community Forums
122: Community Forums
123: Home
124: Your Account
125: Community Forums
126: Community Forums
127: Community Forums
128: Community Forums
129: Photo Gallery
130: Community Forums
131: Community Forums
132: News
133: Community Forums
134: Downloads
135: Community Forums
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: Community Forums
139: Home
140: Home
141: Downloads
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Statistics
146: Member Screenshots
147: Your Account
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Your Account
152: Community Forums
153: News Archive
154: Community Forums
155: Photo Gallery
156: Home
157: Community Forums
158: Photo Gallery
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Member Screenshots
162: Home
163: Community Forums
164: Community Forums
165: Member Screenshots
166: Community Forums
167: Community Forums
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Statistics
172: Member Screenshots
173: Member Screenshots
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Photo Gallery
177: Your Account
178: Photo Gallery
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Community Forums
182: Home
183: Community Forums
184: Community Forums
185: Photo Gallery
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Home
191: Home
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Home
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: News Archive
203: Home
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Home
207: Your Account
208: Community Forums
209: Home
210: Photo Gallery
211: Photo Gallery
212: Home
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Member Screenshots
216: Home
217: Photo Gallery
218: Community Forums
219: Community Forums
220: Community Forums
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Community Forums
227: Community Forums
228: Photo Gallery
229: Your Account
230: Downloads
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Photo Gallery
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Member Screenshots
239: Community Forums
240: Home
241: News
242: Community Forums
243: Member Screenshots
244: Community Forums
245: Statistics
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Home
249: Photo Gallery
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Member Screenshots
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Member Screenshots
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Community Forums
259: Home
260: Community Forums
261: Community Forums
262: Community Forums
263: Home
264: Your Account
265: Downloads
266: Community Forums
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Statistics
270: Statistics
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Member Screenshots
274: Home
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Community Forums
279: Home
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Home
284: News Archive
285: Photo Gallery
286: Community Forums
287: Home
288: Community Forums
289: Your Account
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Member Screenshots
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Community Forums
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Community Forums
301: Downloads
302: News
303: Photo Gallery
304: Photo Gallery
305: Member Screenshots
306: Community Forums
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Member Screenshots
312: Community Forums
313: Photo Gallery
314: Member Screenshots
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Downloads
318: Community Forums
319: Home
320: News
321: Your Account
322: Photo Gallery
323: Community Forums
324: Community Forums
325: Photo Gallery
326: Community Forums
327: Community Forums
328: Community Forums
329: Member Screenshots
330: Community Forums
331: Community Forums
332: Your Account
333: Your Account
334: Home
335: Community Forums
336: Photo Gallery
337: Downloads
338: Downloads
339: Home
340: Home
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Photo Gallery
344: Photo Gallery
345: Community Forums
346: Community Forums
347: Photo Gallery
348: Community Forums
349: News Archive
350: Your Account
351: Community Forums
352: Community Forums
353: Home
354: Community Forums
355: Home
356: Photo Gallery
357: Your Account
358: Community Forums
359: Community Forums
360: Photo Gallery
361: Home
362: Community Forums
363: Community Forums
364: Home
365: Community Forums
366: Home
367: Photo Gallery
368: Community Forums
369: Home
370: Photo Gallery
371: Photo Gallery
372: Community Forums
373: Photo Gallery
374: Home
375: Home
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Home
379: Downloads
380: Community Forums
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: News
384: Downloads
385: Community Forums
386: Photo Gallery
387: Community Forums
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: News Archive
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Downloads
395: News Archive
396: Downloads
397: Community Forums
398: Photo Gallery
399: Home
400: Community Forums
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: News Archive
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Photo Gallery
410: Member Screenshots
411: Community Forums
412: Community Forums
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Community Forums
418: Community Forums
419: Statistics
420: Home
421: Your Account
422: Photo Gallery
423: Home
424: Community Forums
425: Community Forums
426: Community Forums
427: Community Forums
428: Home
429: News Archive
430: Community Forums
431: Home
432: Home
433: Downloads
434: Community Forums
435: LinkToUs
436: Downloads
437: Community Forums
438: Home
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Home
442: Photo Gallery
443: Community Forums
444: Photo Gallery
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Home
448: Photo Gallery
449: Community Forums
450: News Archive
451: Downloads
452: Community Forums
453: Community Forums
454: Your Account
455: Community Forums
456: Home
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Community Forums
460: Community Forums
461: Home
462: News Archive
463: Home
464: Home
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Home
468: Community Forums
469: Photo Gallery
470: Member Screenshots
471: Community Forums
472: Statistics
473: Photo Gallery
474: Community Forums
475: Community Forums
476: Member Screenshots
477: Community Forums
478: Community Forums
479: Home
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Photo Gallery
483: Home
484: Community Forums
485: Home
486: Community Forums
487: Photo Gallery
488: Your Account
489: Home
490: Community Forums
491: Community Forums
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Home
496: Community Forums
497: Home
498: Community Forums
499: Member Screenshots
500: Community Forums
501: Community Forums
502: Photo Gallery
503: Photo Gallery
504: Community Forums
505: Community Forums
506: Community Forums
507: Community Forums
508: Community Forums
509: Downloads
510: Photo Gallery
511: Community Forums
512: Home
513: Community Forums
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Your Account
517: Community Forums
518: Downloads
519: Community Forums
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: Home
524: Community Forums
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Downloads
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Home
531: Community Forums
532: Downloads
533: Home
534: Your Account
535: Home
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Downloads
539: Community Forums
540: Home
541: Community Forums
542: Home
543: Community Forums
544: Photo Gallery
545: Community Forums
546: Community Forums
547: Home
548: Community Forums
549: Home
550: Your Account
551: Home
552: Downloads
553: Statistics
554: Community Forums
555: Community Forums
556: Photo Gallery
557: Home
558: Community Forums
559: Community Forums
560: Community Forums
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Member Screenshots
564: Community Forums
565: Your Account
566: Member Screenshots
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: News
570: Home
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Home
577: Community Forums
578: Your Account
579: Community Forums
580: Home
581: Community Forums
582: Community Forums
583: Community Forums
584: Your Account
585: Member Screenshots
586: Home
587: Photo Gallery
588: Community Forums
589: Photo Gallery
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Community Forums
593: News Archive
594: Home
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Community Forums
598: Statistics
599: Community Forums
600: Community Forums
601: Community Forums
602: Member Screenshots
603: Home
604: Home
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Member Screenshots
608: Member Screenshots
609: Community Forums
610: Downloads
611: Member Screenshots
612: Your Account
613: Photo Gallery
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Home
617: Community Forums
618: Member Screenshots
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Community Forums
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Home
628: Home
629: Photo Gallery
630: Member Screenshots
631: Community Forums
632: Member Screenshots
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Home
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Member Screenshots
640: Photo Gallery
641: Community Forums
642: Community Forums
643: Community Forums
644: Home
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Photo Gallery
648: Community Forums
649: Photo Gallery
650: Downloads
651: Community Forums
652: Your Account
653: Photo Gallery
654: Community Forums
655: Downloads
656: Home
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Home
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Member Screenshots
674: Community Forums
675: Community Forums
676: Downloads
677: Home
678: Community Forums
679: Photo Gallery
680: Community Forums
681: News Archive
682: Community Forums
683: Your Account
684: Community Forums
685: Community Forums
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Statistics
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Home
693: Home
694: Home
695: Community Forums
696: Community Forums
697: Home
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: News Archive
701: Community Forums
702: Home
703: Photo Gallery
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Community Forums
709: Member Screenshots
710: Community Forums
711: Community Forums
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: Community Forums
715: Home
716: Photo Gallery
717: Community Forums
718: Community Forums
719: Community Forums
720: Home
721: Your Account
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Photo Gallery
730: Photo Gallery
731: Community Forums
732: Community Forums
733: Home
734: Photo Gallery
735: Community Forums
736: Community Forums
737: News
738: Community Forums
739: Photo Gallery
740: Downloads
741: Your Account
742: Community Forums
743: Community Forums
744: Community Forums
745: Community Forums
746: Photo Gallery
747: Community Forums
748: Photo Gallery
749: Community Forums
750: Community Forums
751: Community Forums
752: Community Forums
753: Community Forums
754: Community Forums
755: News
756: Community Forums
757: Community Forums
758: Community Forums
759: Home
760: Community Forums
761: Community Forums
762: Community Forums
763: Photo Gallery
764: Community Forums
765: News
766: Photo Gallery
767: Photo Gallery
768: Member Screenshots
769: Member Screenshots
770: Community Forums
771: Photo Gallery
772: Home
773: Home
774: Home
775: Photo Gallery
776: Home
777: Community Forums
778: Community Forums
779: News Archive
780: Community Forums
781: Statistics
782: Community Forums
783: Community Forums
784: Home
785: Community Forums
786: Photo Gallery
787: News Archive
788: Community Forums
789: Photo Gallery
790: Community Forums
791: Community Forums
792: Community Forums
793: Home
794: Community Forums
795: Member Screenshots
796: Home
797: Community Forums
798: Community Forums
799: Community Forums
800: Community Forums
801: Community Forums
802: Community Forums
803: Photo Gallery
804: Community Forums
805: Home
806: Statistics
807: Member Screenshots
808: Community Forums
809: Community Forums
810: Community Forums
811: Community Forums
812: Community Forums
813: Community Forums
814: Community Forums
815: Photo Gallery
816: Community Forums
817: Downloads
818: Community Forums
819: Photo Gallery
820: Community Forums
821: Home
822: Community Forums
823: Community Forums
824: Community Forums
825: Your Account
826: Photo Gallery
827: Home
828: Community Forums
829: Community Forums
830: Community Forums
831: Community Forums
832: Community Forums
833: Community Forums
834: Community Forums
835: Community Forums
836: Photo Gallery
837: Member Screenshots
838: Community Forums
839: Community Forums
840: Your Account
841: Photo Gallery
842: Community Forums
843: Community Forums
844: Community Forums
845: Community Forums
846: Community Forums
847: Community Forums
848: Photo Gallery
849: Home
850: Community Forums
851: Community Forums
852: Community Forums
853: News
854: Home
855: Member Screenshots
856: Community Forums
857: Community Forums
858: Community Forums
859: Your Account
860: Community Forums
861: Statistics
862: Community Forums
863: Statistics
864: Community Forums
865: Community Forums
866: Community Forums
867: Community Forums
868: Community Forums
869: News
870: Home
871: Community Forums
872: Community Forums
873: Home
874: Community Forums
875: Community Forums
876: Member Screenshots
877: Community Forums
878: Home
879: Home
880: Community Forums
881: Community Forums
882: Community Forums
883: Community Forums
884: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
AFV garage sale
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
blair
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:31 am
Post subject: AFV garage sale

Found a link to a interesting story here:
www.thelocal.de/10441/20080302/

Here's the article

For sale: Nazi German tanks

Published: 2 Mar 08 9:30 CET
Online: www.thelocal.de/10441/

Former Nazi ally Bulgaria plans to auction German tanks from the Second World War.

* German soldiers ate sausage made from their own blood (2 Mar 08)
* Treasure hunters halt search for Nazi loot (29 Feb 08)
* Neo-Nazi crime soars at Saxon schools (29 Feb 08)

Bulgaria is selling German tanks from World War II for about €100,000. This is the starting price, according to the Sunday edition of Bulgarian daily Trud in Sofia. The Bulgarian Defence Ministry plans to auction some 22 German Wehrmacht tanks and assault guns. The best-preserved pieces will be offered to museums before auctions begin.

Bulgaria was allied with Germany during the Second World War, and the German military sent the tanks to the country during that time. The Bulgarian army later used the same weapons to fight Nazi Germany until its surrender in May 1945. At the end of the 1950s, the tanks that weren’t scrapped were cemented into a barrier to protect the formerly communist Eastern Bloc country on the Turkish border.

Now that both Bulgaria and Turkey are NATO members, the tanks are no longer necessary to protect the border.

In December 2007, Bulgarian authorities arrested two German nationals and a Bulgarian army officer who allegedly stole a German Wehrmacht tank and attempted to steal a second one near the southeastern town of Jambul in Bulgaria.
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...pic&t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:40 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Hi Folks!

We can only hope that most will find good homes, be restored as best is possible, and placed on display for all to see.

Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:05 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- Rikard_Hufschmied
This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.


Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.

So it is a very rare vehicle with some unique features and probably no worse than the StuGs in Finland, which were, IIRC standard StuG III Gs. So if rarity is reflected in the price, this should be a good deal more expensive than the Finnish StuGs of which one went at 185.000 Euro.

As for the Panzer IVs, if they auction them all off at once, the best ones might get a good price but the rest.......... Like you, I doubt it.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

When Finland offered the 3 StuGs for sale, it didn't seem that others would be offered in the near future, that's why they were bought for these quite high prices. Now, at least 7 StuGs and 15 Pz IV are offered, so the rarity of the offer decrease and the starting price is, I think, too high. I think that some of them will not be sold. The big question is ; what will they do with them?

The other big question : what about the incomplete bottom hulls + Panzer IV with turret modified for an MG ? Will they be recovered too?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:49 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

What's the forums take on this one?



Not so evident in this shot, but judging from other shots of the same vehicle while still buried (in this thread: www.scalemodels-bg.com...start=285) suggest that it is one of the 142 StuG IIIs built on Panzer III Ausf. M hulls delivered from MIAG in 1943. It has the off-set splash guard in front of the drivers visor, Panzer III hatches and welded add-on armour.

I dont recall seeing any other surviving vehicles of this type?

EDIT: Possibly the StuG III G in Rena, Norway is of the same type?

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- clausb
- Rikard_Hufschmied
This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.


Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.


cbo


Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?


Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:44 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- clausb
- bsmart
Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?


Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo


I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70

But Yes the one at Aberdeen has the L70 gun

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70


I'm just calling it what the Germans were calling it Smile

I was under the impression that the designation "Panzer IV/70" was well established in the armour community? It is he name used in my old 1993 edition of Chamberlain & Doyles "Encyclopedia of German Tanks.."

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:26 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer_IV

Well, the designations can be discussed but I think that Wikipedia is a reliable source. Is it not? If not, I should maybe modify this document :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzer_IV_variants.pdf

"Variants

* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/43: a small number of these were built as the preproduction series.
* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/48, official name Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV. Some 780 or so were produced in 1944.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was one of two variants armed with the PaK 42 L/70 gun. Some 940 were built in 1944 and 1945. The (V) stands for the builder, Vomag.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was the other PaK 42 L/70 armed Jagdpanzer IV. This differed in that its superstructure was mounted directly on the original Panzer IV chassis and as such lacked the sharp edged nose of the other variants. Only 278 were built during 1944 and 1945. The (A) stands for the builder, Alkett."

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- the_shadock
By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70


Well, if we are going to be anal about it Wink

1 Jagdpanzer IV or Panzer IV/70 unknown model
5 Jagdpanzer IV (Munster 0-serie, Munster, Saumur, Thun, Bulgaria)
5 Panzer IV/70 V (Sofia, Kubinka, APG, Ft. Knox, Ottawa)
1 Panzer IV/70 A (Saumur)

As for the name, people can call them what they want, I just use the designations I've come to know and use from the litterature I've read over the years Smile

The reality is that even the German army used different designations at different times during the life-cycle of a given vehicle, particularily when it came to anything StuG-like due to the on going struggle between the Generalinspectorate of Armoured Troops and that of the artillery over the right to control production, organisation etc. on this type of vehicle.

Hence, the Jagdpanzer IV was, at various times in its life:

Leichte Panzerjäger (auf Fgst.Pz.Kpf.Wg. IV)
Panzerjäger (auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV)
7,5cm Pz.Jäg. 39 (L/48) IV
Sturmgeschütz neue Art
Leichte Panzerjäger IV
...and finally in September 1944, just as production was running out, Jagdpanzer IV

There are a number of variants on those as well.

Spielberger lists about 15 different name variants for the Panzer IV/70 V, including:

Sturmgeschütz mit 7,5cm L/70
Panzer IV lang (V)
Leichte Panzerjäger (Vomag) mit 7,5cm PaK 42
Panzer IV/70 V
...and even in one case, plainly "Jagdpanzer IV"

Similar stuff with the Panzer IV/70 A.

But neither is apparently refered to as "Jagdpanzer IV/70" by anyone at any time.

As for the Wiki article, it links to both Panzerworld and Achtung Panzer who both uses the Jagdpanzer IV - Panzer IV/70 designation. Why the author of the article chooses to elaborate on the cumbersome "official name" of "Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV" and then ignores the designations used by his own references is anybodys guess Smile

Whether you should change the names you use in your much appreciated documents about surviving tanks is none of my business, but it seems to me that any serious book about German armour is using Jagdpanzer IV for the short-gunned version and Panzer IV/70 for the two long-gunned versions (i.e. Spielberger, Chamberlain & Doyle, Jentz etc.)

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Well,

I always had problems with official designations of such vehicles, and to be sincere, I use some designations which makes it clear which vehicle it is (for instance Jagdpanzer IV L/70 = a Jagdpanzer IV with a L/70 gun).
I try to refer as much as possible to Wikipedia, as it is a free and easy accessible encyclopedia. I don't have Panzer litterature at all. I decided to specialize not on tank designations and characteristics but on their location and status only.

As did Bob Smart, I'm quite perplex about a designation like "Panzer IV/70" which refers to a tank and not a tank destroyer for me. (and I think it is the same for the general public who has a minimal interest for German armour).

But I'm open to a discussion about the designation which should appear on my documents, and if I should replace the ones currently appearing by more accurate ones. Let me know.

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:43 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

The problem with Wikipedia is there is no editorial control or vetting of facts.

I'll defer to Chamberlain & Doyle. By the way I checked George Forty's German Tanks of World War Two which agrees with the name Panzer IV/70. I don't see an explanation as to why but Chamberlain says they were first issued to the 105th & 106th Independent panzer Brigades. I suspect it may have been a propaganda based decision to name it that, but it does appear that Panzer IV/70 was the name

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)


Last edited by bsmart on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum