±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 747
Total: 747
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Downloads
02: Community Forums
03: Member Screenshots
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Community Forums
07: Community Forums
08: Member Screenshots
09: Member Screenshots
10: Photo Gallery
11: Community Forums
12: Downloads
13: Photo Gallery
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Community Forums
17: Member Screenshots
18: Community Forums
19: Community Forums
20: Community Forums
21: Member Screenshots
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Photo Gallery
25: Community Forums
26: Statistics
27: Community Forums
28: Home
29: Community Forums
30: Statistics
31: Home
32: News Archive
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Member Screenshots
36: Community Forums
37: Home
38: Community Forums
39: Member Screenshots
40: Community Forums
41: News Archive
42: Home
43: News Archive
44: News Archive
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Downloads
48: Community Forums
49: News
50: News Archive
51: Member Screenshots
52: Member Screenshots
53: Community Forums
54: News Archive
55: Downloads
56: Downloads
57: News Archive
58: Community Forums
59: Community Forums
60: Photo Gallery
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Community Forums
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Downloads
68: Home
69: Community Forums
70: Community Forums
71: Home
72: Community Forums
73: Community Forums
74: Community Forums
75: Member Screenshots
76: Community Forums
77: Home
78: LinkToUs
79: Photo Gallery
80: Member Screenshots
81: News Archive
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Home
85: Member Screenshots
86: Member Screenshots
87: Community Forums
88: News
89: Community Forums
90: Member Screenshots
91: Home
92: Photo Gallery
93: Member Screenshots
94: Community Forums
95: Home
96: Community Forums
97: Downloads
98: Community Forums
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Community Forums
102: Community Forums
103: News Archive
104: Home
105: Community Forums
106: Community Forums
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Community Forums
110: Community Forums
111: Downloads
112: Community Forums
113: Downloads
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Community Forums
118: Home
119: Community Forums
120: Community Forums
121: Community Forums
122: Member Screenshots
123: Community Forums
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Treasury
127: Member Screenshots
128: Your Account
129: Community Forums
130: Home
131: Community Forums
132: Community Forums
133: Downloads
134: Community Forums
135: Community Forums
136: Photo Gallery
137: Community Forums
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Downloads
141: Home
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: Member Screenshots
147: Community Forums
148: Community Forums
149: Community Forums
150: Community Forums
151: Photo Gallery
152: Community Forums
153: Home
154: Downloads
155: Community Forums
156: Photo Gallery
157: Community Forums
158: Community Forums
159: Home
160: Community Forums
161: Photo Gallery
162: Home
163: Home
164: Home
165: Community Forums
166: Community Forums
167: Member Screenshots
168: Community Forums
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: LinkToUs
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Member Screenshots
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Member Screenshots
179: Community Forums
180: Downloads
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: News Archive
184: Community Forums
185: Community Forums
186: News
187: News Archive
188: Community Forums
189: Home
190: Member Screenshots
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Downloads
195: Community Forums
196: Community Forums
197: Community Forums
198: Downloads
199: Community Forums
200: Member Screenshots
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Home
205: Community Forums
206: Downloads
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Community Forums
210: Photo Gallery
211: Community Forums
212: Statistics
213: Community Forums
214: Home
215: Community Forums
216: Member Screenshots
217: Community Forums
218: Community Forums
219: Home
220: Photo Gallery
221: Community Forums
222: Member Screenshots
223: Home
224: Downloads
225: Community Forums
226: Member Screenshots
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Member Screenshots
230: Home
231: Community Forums
232: Home
233: Community Forums
234: News
235: Community Forums
236: Photo Gallery
237: Community Forums
238: Community Forums
239: Photo Gallery
240: Downloads
241: Community Forums
242: Photo Gallery
243: Member Screenshots
244: Home
245: Home
246: News Archive
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Member Screenshots
250: Member Screenshots
251: Photo Gallery
252: Community Forums
253: Photo Gallery
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Community Forums
257: Community Forums
258: Home
259: Downloads
260: Photo Gallery
261: Photo Gallery
262: Photo Gallery
263: Downloads
264: Community Forums
265: Home
266: Member Screenshots
267: Community Forums
268: News Archive
269: Member Screenshots
270: Community Forums
271: Member Screenshots
272: Community Forums
273: Downloads
274: Home
275: Community Forums
276: Photo Gallery
277: Community Forums
278: Tell a Friend
279: Downloads
280: Community Forums
281: Home
282: News Archive
283: Community Forums
284: News Archive
285: Community Forums
286: Member Screenshots
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Community Forums
295: Community Forums
296: Downloads
297: Community Forums
298: Member Screenshots
299: Home
300: Community Forums
301: Member Screenshots
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Member Screenshots
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Downloads
310: Member Screenshots
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: Community Forums
315: Home
316: News Archive
317: Photo Gallery
318: News Archive
319: Member Screenshots
320: Member Screenshots
321: Member Screenshots
322: Community Forums
323: Member Screenshots
324: Community Forums
325: News Archive
326: Community Forums
327: News Archive
328: Photo Gallery
329: Home
330: Member Screenshots
331: Community Forums
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Community Forums
335: Community Forums
336: Community Forums
337: Member Screenshots
338: Community Forums
339: Community Forums
340: Community Forums
341: Community Forums
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Downloads
345: Home
346: Member Screenshots
347: Community Forums
348: Member Screenshots
349: Community Forums
350: Downloads
351: Member Screenshots
352: News
353: Community Forums
354: Community Forums
355: Community Forums
356: Home
357: Community Forums
358: Photo Gallery
359: Statistics
360: Contact
361: Community Forums
362: Downloads
363: Member Screenshots
364: Member Screenshots
365: Community Forums
366: Member Screenshots
367: Member Screenshots
368: Community Forums
369: Home
370: Community Forums
371: Photo Gallery
372: Community Forums
373: News Archive
374: News Archive
375: Home
376: Community Forums
377: Community Forums
378: Member Screenshots
379: Member Screenshots
380: Photo Gallery
381: Community Forums
382: Community Forums
383: Downloads
384: Community Forums
385: Home
386: Community Forums
387: Your Account
388: Community Forums
389: Community Forums
390: Home
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Photo Gallery
394: Community Forums
395: Home
396: News Archive
397: Community Forums
398: Home
399: Community Forums
400: Member Screenshots
401: Home
402: Community Forums
403: Community Forums
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Supporters
407: Community Forums
408: Community Forums
409: Community Forums
410: Community Forums
411: Photo Gallery
412: Member Screenshots
413: Community Forums
414: Community Forums
415: Photo Gallery
416: Home
417: Community Forums
418: Home
419: Community Forums
420: Member Screenshots
421: Home
422: Downloads
423: Community Forums
424: Community Forums
425: News
426: Statistics
427: Home
428: Community Forums
429: Member Screenshots
430: Community Forums
431: Community Forums
432: Photo Gallery
433: Home
434: Member Screenshots
435: Community Forums
436: Home
437: Community Forums
438: Photo Gallery
439: Community Forums
440: Community Forums
441: Photo Gallery
442: Member Screenshots
443: News Archive
444: Home
445: Community Forums
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Community Forums
450: Member Screenshots
451: Downloads
452: Community Forums
453: Member Screenshots
454: Community Forums
455: Community Forums
456: Community Forums
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Member Screenshots
460: Community Forums
461: Community Forums
462: Member Screenshots
463: Member Screenshots
464: Member Screenshots
465: Member Screenshots
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Home
469: Photo Gallery
470: Home
471: News Archive
472: Member Screenshots
473: Member Screenshots
474: Community Forums
475: Downloads
476: Community Forums
477: Home
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Your Account
483: Photo Gallery
484: Community Forums
485: Community Forums
486: Community Forums
487: Member Screenshots
488: Community Forums
489: Home
490: Photo Gallery
491: Member Screenshots
492: Community Forums
493: Community Forums
494: Member Screenshots
495: Community Forums
496: Member Screenshots
497: Community Forums
498: Community Forums
499: Member Screenshots
500: Community Forums
501: Photo Gallery
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Home
505: Photo Gallery
506: Downloads
507: Community Forums
508: News Archive
509: Community Forums
510: Community Forums
511: Photo Gallery
512: News Archive
513: Community Forums
514: Home
515: News
516: Member Screenshots
517: Community Forums
518: Home
519: News Archive
520: Community Forums
521: Community Forums
522: Community Forums
523: News Archive
524: News
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Community Forums
528: Community Forums
529: Member Screenshots
530: Downloads
531: Member Screenshots
532: News Archive
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Community Forums
536: Community Forums
537: Community Forums
538: Community Forums
539: Statistics
540: Community Forums
541: Community Forums
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Community Forums
545: Downloads
546: Community Forums
547: Downloads
548: Community Forums
549: Community Forums
550: Photo Gallery
551: Community Forums
552: Downloads
553: Member Screenshots
554: Community Forums
555: Home
556: Member Screenshots
557: Home
558: Home
559: Home
560: Member Screenshots
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: News Archive
564: Community Forums
565: Community Forums
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Community Forums
570: Downloads
571: Community Forums
572: Downloads
573: Community Forums
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Community Forums
577: Community Forums
578: Home
579: Photo Gallery
580: Community Forums
581: Community Forums
582: Member Screenshots
583: Community Forums
584: Photo Gallery
585: Member Screenshots
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Community Forums
589: Community Forums
590: Community Forums
591: Community Forums
592: Downloads
593: Community Forums
594: Community Forums
595: Community Forums
596: Community Forums
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Downloads
600: News
601: Community Forums
602: Community Forums
603: Downloads
604: Member Screenshots
605: Community Forums
606: Member Screenshots
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Photo Gallery
612: Home
613: Community Forums
614: Community Forums
615: Member Screenshots
616: News Archive
617: Member Screenshots
618: Community Forums
619: Community Forums
620: Community Forums
621: Photo Gallery
622: Community Forums
623: Community Forums
624: Downloads
625: Community Forums
626: Home
627: Community Forums
628: Member Screenshots
629: Community Forums
630: Member Screenshots
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: Community Forums
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Member Screenshots
638: Member Screenshots
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Downloads
642: News
643: Downloads
644: Community Forums
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: Member Screenshots
648: Community Forums
649: Community Forums
650: News Archive
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Community Forums
657: Member Screenshots
658: Community Forums
659: Downloads
660: Downloads
661: Community Forums
662: Community Forums
663: Community Forums
664: Community Forums
665: Photo Gallery
666: Community Forums
667: News Archive
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Downloads
671: Member Screenshots
672: Community Forums
673: Photo Gallery
674: Community Forums
675: News Archive
676: Community Forums
677: Statistics
678: Community Forums
679: News Archive
680: Downloads
681: News Archive
682: Community Forums
683: Member Screenshots
684: News
685: News Archive
686: Community Forums
687: Member Screenshots
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Member Screenshots
692: Home
693: Member Screenshots
694: Community Forums
695: News Archive
696: Community Forums
697: Community Forums
698: Home
699: Home
700: Community Forums
701: Photo Gallery
702: Community Forums
703: Community Forums
704: Community Forums
705: Community Forums
706: Member Screenshots
707: Home
708: Community Forums
709: Community Forums
710: Member Screenshots
711: Member Screenshots
712: Community Forums
713: Community Forums
714: Member Screenshots
715: News Archive
716: News Archive
717: Home
718: Photo Gallery
719: Photo Gallery
720: Statistics
721: Community Forums
722: Community Forums
723: Home
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Home
727: Community Forums
728: News
729: Downloads
730: Downloads
731: Community Forums
732: Downloads
733: Home
734: Community Forums
735: Community Forums
736: Member Screenshots
737: Community Forums
738: Downloads
739: Photo Gallery
740: Photo Gallery
741: Community Forums
742: Photo Gallery
743: Community Forums
744: Home
745: Community Forums
746: Community Forums
747: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
AFV garage sale
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
blair
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:31 am
Post subject: AFV garage sale

Found a link to a interesting story here:
www.thelocal.de/10441/20080302/

Here's the article

For sale: Nazi German tanks

Published: 2 Mar 08 9:30 CET
Online: www.thelocal.de/10441/

Former Nazi ally Bulgaria plans to auction German tanks from the Second World War.

* German soldiers ate sausage made from their own blood (2 Mar 08)
* Treasure hunters halt search for Nazi loot (29 Feb 08)
* Neo-Nazi crime soars at Saxon schools (29 Feb 08)

Bulgaria is selling German tanks from World War II for about €100,000. This is the starting price, according to the Sunday edition of Bulgarian daily Trud in Sofia. The Bulgarian Defence Ministry plans to auction some 22 German Wehrmacht tanks and assault guns. The best-preserved pieces will be offered to museums before auctions begin.

Bulgaria was allied with Germany during the Second World War, and the German military sent the tanks to the country during that time. The Bulgarian army later used the same weapons to fight Nazi Germany until its surrender in May 1945. At the end of the 1950s, the tanks that weren’t scrapped were cemented into a barrier to protect the formerly communist Eastern Bloc country on the Turkish border.

Now that both Bulgaria and Turkey are NATO members, the tanks are no longer necessary to protect the border.

In December 2007, Bulgarian authorities arrested two German nationals and a Bulgarian army officer who allegedly stole a German Wehrmacht tank and attempted to steal a second one near the southeastern town of Jambul in Bulgaria.
Back to top
View user's profile
Rikard_Hufschmied
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 458
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 1:18 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...pic&t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.

_________________
Frustra Nate Vive Devincere
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Roy_A_Lingle
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 1997
Location: El Paso & Ft Bliss, Texas
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:40 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Hi Folks!

We can only hope that most will find good homes, be restored as best is possible, and placed on display for all to see.

Sgt, Scouts out!

_________________
"You can never have too much reconnaissance."
General G.S. Patton Jr.
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:05 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- Rikard_Hufschmied
This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.


Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.

So it is a very rare vehicle with some unique features and probably no worse than the StuGs in Finland, which were, IIRC standard StuG III Gs. So if rarity is reflected in the price, this should be a good deal more expensive than the Finnish StuGs of which one went at 185.000 Euro.

As for the Panzer IVs, if they auction them all off at once, the best ones might get a good price but the rest.......... Like you, I doubt it.

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:01 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

When Finland offered the 3 StuGs for sale, it didn't seem that others would be offered in the near future, that's why they were bought for these quite high prices. Now, at least 7 StuGs and 15 Pz IV are offered, so the rarity of the offer decrease and the starting price is, I think, too high. I think that some of them will not be sold. The big question is ; what will they do with them?

The other big question : what about the incomplete bottom hulls + Panzer IV with turret modified for an MG ? Will they be recovered too?

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:49 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

What's the forums take on this one?



Not so evident in this shot, but judging from other shots of the same vehicle while still buried (in this thread: www.scalemodels-bg.com...start=285) suggest that it is one of the 142 StuG IIIs built on Panzer III Ausf. M hulls delivered from MIAG in 1943. It has the off-set splash guard in front of the drivers visor, Panzer III hatches and welded add-on armour.

I dont recall seeing any other surviving vehicles of this type?

EDIT: Possibly the StuG III G in Rena, Norway is of the same type?

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:23 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- clausb
- Rikard_Hufschmied
This refers to the Panzers we've discussed in this thread:

www.com-central.net/in...amp;t=8865

IMO, 100K Euro is way to much. You can't really benchmark the market price against the recent Finnish auction as there are so many more of both StuG:s and Pz IV:s on potential sale in Bulgaria. The Finnish auction reflected the relative rarity at the time of such items being auctioned off, the Bulgarian salvage is bound to deflate price to some extent.

100K Euro is viable (again IMO) for the Jagdpanzer IV though as it's rare and fairly complete in many aspects, running gear, tracks, gearbox etc. I seem to remember that it might also be a rare production variant.


Any Jagdpanzer IV is rare, as there are only 6 of them left including this one. Another one is under a bridge in Poland (condition unknown?) and of the remaining 4, one is a pre-production vehicle (ex-Saumur, now Munster). The one in Thun is a late production item with 80mm front armour, so only 2 other early production vehicles with 60mm armour exists in Samur and Munster (belonging to WTS IIRC). The Bulgarian vehicle is earlier than both these and the only one with a drivers MG slot, in this case covered with a flat steel disc. This disc was only mounted in the period between the decision to drop the slot and the time the steel works began to make front hulls without it.


cbo


Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:32 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?


Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:44 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- clausb
- bsmart
Does your 6 JPz IV include the one at Aberdeen?


Aberdeen does not have a Jagdpanzer IV as far as I know. They do have a Panzer IV/70 V (i.e. a Jagdpanzer IV hull with the 7,5cm L/70 gun) which is a rare vehicle in its own right (5 remains?).

cbo


I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70

But Yes the one at Aberdeen has the L70 gun

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:09 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- bsmart
I had thought that the the L70 gun was just a variation of the JPz IV (much as the Pz 3 has shorter and longer 50mm guns in different versions)
Calling it a Panzer IV/70 implies to me that it is a turreted vehicle I always thought it was a Jagdpanzer IV/70


I'm just calling it what the Germans were calling it Smile

I was under the impression that the designation "Panzer IV/70" was well established in the armour community? It is he name used in my old 1993 edition of Chamberlain & Doyles "Encyclopedia of German Tanks.."

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:26 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer_IV

Well, the designations can be discussed but I think that Wikipedia is a reliable source. Is it not? If not, I should maybe modify this document :

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Panzer_IV_variants.pdf

"Variants

* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/43: a small number of these were built as the preproduction series.
* Jagdpanzer IV with 7.5 cm PaK 39 L/48, official name Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV. Some 780 or so were produced in 1944.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (V) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was one of two variants armed with the PaK 42 L/70 gun. Some 940 were built in 1944 and 1945. The (V) stands for the builder, Vomag.
* Jagdpanzer IV/70 (A) (Sd.Kfz.162/1) was the other PaK 42 L/70 armed Jagdpanzer IV. This differed in that its superstructure was mounted directly on the original Panzer IV chassis and as such lacked the sharp edged nose of the other variants. Only 278 were built during 1944 and 1945. The (A) stands for the builder, Alkett."

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:40 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
clausb
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 146

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:48 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

- the_shadock
By the way :

1 Jagdpanzer IV unknown model, under a bridge in Poland
5 Jagdpanzer IV L/48
6 Jagdpanzer IV L/70


Well, if we are going to be anal about it Wink

1 Jagdpanzer IV or Panzer IV/70 unknown model
5 Jagdpanzer IV (Munster 0-serie, Munster, Saumur, Thun, Bulgaria)
5 Panzer IV/70 V (Sofia, Kubinka, APG, Ft. Knox, Ottawa)
1 Panzer IV/70 A (Saumur)

As for the name, people can call them what they want, I just use the designations I've come to know and use from the litterature I've read over the years Smile

The reality is that even the German army used different designations at different times during the life-cycle of a given vehicle, particularily when it came to anything StuG-like due to the on going struggle between the Generalinspectorate of Armoured Troops and that of the artillery over the right to control production, organisation etc. on this type of vehicle.

Hence, the Jagdpanzer IV was, at various times in its life:

Leichte Panzerjäger (auf Fgst.Pz.Kpf.Wg. IV)
Panzerjäger (auf Fahrgestell Panzer IV)
7,5cm Pz.Jäg. 39 (L/48) IV
Sturmgeschütz neue Art
Leichte Panzerjäger IV
...and finally in September 1944, just as production was running out, Jagdpanzer IV

There are a number of variants on those as well.

Spielberger lists about 15 different name variants for the Panzer IV/70 V, including:

Sturmgeschütz mit 7,5cm L/70
Panzer IV lang (V)
Leichte Panzerjäger (Vomag) mit 7,5cm PaK 42
Panzer IV/70 V
...and even in one case, plainly "Jagdpanzer IV"

Similar stuff with the Panzer IV/70 A.

But neither is apparently refered to as "Jagdpanzer IV/70" by anyone at any time.

As for the Wiki article, it links to both Panzerworld and Achtung Panzer who both uses the Jagdpanzer IV - Panzer IV/70 designation. Why the author of the article chooses to elaborate on the cumbersome "official name" of "Sturmgeschütz neuer Art mit 7.5 cm PaK L/48 auf Fahrgestell PzKpfw IV" and then ignores the designations used by his own references is anybodys guess Smile

Whether you should change the names you use in your much appreciated documents about surviving tanks is none of my business, but it seems to me that any serious book about German armour is using Jagdpanzer IV for the short-gunned version and Panzer IV/70 for the two long-gunned versions (i.e. Spielberger, Chamberlain & Doyle, Jentz etc.)

cbo
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:41 pm
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

Well,

I always had problems with official designations of such vehicles, and to be sincere, I use some designations which makes it clear which vehicle it is (for instance Jagdpanzer IV L/70 = a Jagdpanzer IV with a L/70 gun).
I try to refer as much as possible to Wikipedia, as it is a free and easy accessible encyclopedia. I don't have Panzer litterature at all. I decided to specialize not on tank designations and characteristics but on their location and status only.

As did Bob Smart, I'm quite perplex about a designation like "Panzer IV/70" which refers to a tank and not a tank destroyer for me. (and I think it is the same for the general public who has a minimal interest for German armour).

But I'm open to a discussion about the designation which should appear on my documents, and if I should replace the ones currently appearing by more accurate ones. Let me know.

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:43 am
Post subject: Re: AFV garage sale

The problem with Wikipedia is there is no editorial control or vetting of facts.

I'll defer to Chamberlain & Doyle. By the way I checked George Forty's German Tanks of World War Two which agrees with the name Panzer IV/70. I don't see an explanation as to why but Chamberlain says they were first issued to the 105th & 106th Independent panzer Brigades. I suspect it may have been a propaganda based decision to name it that, but it does appear that Panzer IV/70 was the name

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)


Last edited by bsmart on Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:04 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum