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SFC_Jeff_Button · Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: Camp Mabry running M4A3...

This M4A3 was used at the WWII reincatment today. It's serial number from the rear tow lugs was 7884, which I intend to send to Joe Demarco to see what he can find out about it and I'll post it here. However what the driver was able to tell me was that it was sent to Israel where the spare road-wheel mounts were added to the side towards the rear. Also the engine is now a Cummins and there is no longer a data plate in the drivers area. During the show it must have fired about 6-8 rounds with flame shooting out of the barrel. The kids got a kick out of seeing a Sherman actually run and move. I'll post more as I know more about this vehicle.

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Kurt_Laughlin · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 577

Hi Jeff:

That's a typical IDF vehicle - the basic hull is an M4A4. The French (post-war) converted them over to R975 radial engines and put M4/M4A1 decks on them, calling them M4A4Transforme or modified. The Israelis added the HVSS and Cummins engine. I don't know if they had any howitzer tanks, so the turret may be from the current or previous owner. The French would stamp the vehicle S/N in the bottom center of the glacis (about where the tarp is).

It looks like the S/N is 17884, which makes more sense for an M4A4 (7884 was an M4A2).

Good find,
KL

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Camp Mabry running M4A3...

Jeff,
Does the Sherman belong to the museum, or some private owner?

Neil

SFC_Jeff_Button · Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Camp Mabry running M4A3...

Hey Neil, this Sherman belongs to the museum and is usually stored inside beside some M3 Halftracks. I recorded numbers from various areas of the body, but the number stamped into the edge of the front glacis, should tell us some more about this tanks history once I get info mack from Joe Demarco. The number is B1491.
I also had to post this picture of my boys with the Sherman!!!

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Roy_A_Lingle · Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Frankentank

Hi Kurt! Hi Folks!

- Kurt_Laughlin

I don't know if they had any howitzer tanks,....
KL

Yes they did. Some of the first tanks they picked up came from de-mil sites. The 105mm barrels had holes drilled into them. The IDF patched them up and used them during the earlier years. There are a few pictures floating around of IDF Shermans with 105 gun mantels mounting standard 75mm gun barrels.

As for where that 105mm turret came from, I THINK(?) I read somewhere that the museum had it and mounted it on this hull which came without a turret.

Spot Report!
Sgt, Scouts Out!

SFC_Jeff_Button · Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: Re: Camp Mabry running M4A3...

The TC of this vehicle told me that the turret was not original, and that the interior had "blast marks" to the inside of the hull which stopped at the turret ring. Since I was with the kids and there were many more people around, I didn't ask for a look inside. I did ask if there was a dada plate in the drivers hole and was told it was missing.

SFC_Jeff_Button · Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: Re: Camp Mabry running M4A3...

Hello all, I sent the pictures and info on this Sherman to Joe Demarco and here is what he told me along with two pictures;

Hi Jeff,
Thanks for the report. That was originally built by Chrysler as an M4A4. Just a guess that it was sent to the French as Lend Lease during WW II. The French supplied a lot of Shermans to Israel in the 1950s. They upgunned them with a French copy of the Panther's 75mm. They were re-engined with Cummins diesels, were retrofitted with HVSS, & that one got a new differential, since all M4A4s were originally built with 3-piece diffs. The Israeli designation for that conversion was M50. That particular example no longer has its M50 turret, but instead has a 105mm turret. I believe the M50 turret from the Mabry is on a M4A3(105) range wreck hull at a Tank Museum in Illinois. And yes, the original US serial number of the Mabry is 17884, indicating it was built by Chrysler in Jan, 1943.

Here's what a relatively complete M50 looks like. This one is S/N 17091, & used to be owned by a gent in Texas.

As you know from your later Chrysler built Shermans at Hood, the number stamped into the edge of the glacis is a loose build number. I can't make sense of it on the M4A4s. That would have been about the 2730th M4A4 accepted, so B1491 is not even close. The M4A4 at APG is SN 19617, & it has B2333 stamped on there & that doesn't make any sense either. I think the other numbers stampings you found have to do with the individual armor plates.

Thanks again, Jeff.

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Maple_Leaf_Eh · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 517

- SFC_Jeff_Button

"That was originally built by Chrysler as an M4A4. Just a guess that it was sent to the French as Lend Lease during WW II. The French supplied a lot of Shermans to Israel in the 1950s. They upgunned them with a French copy of the Panther's 75mm. They were re-engined with Cummins diesels, were retrofitted with HVSS, & that one got a new differential, since all M4A4s were originally built with 3-piece diffs. The Israeli designation for that conversion was M50. That particular example no longer has its M50 turret, but instead has a 105mm turret. I believe the M50 turret from the Mabry is on a M4A3(105) range wreck hull at a Tank Museum in Illinois."

What a cobbled together piece of wheezing old battlefield pickup! Junkyard hull, bastardized differential, replacement engine, scrapped engine deck, counterfeit gun, upgraded suspension, shadetree swap turret dragged off a firing range, etc. Five or six owners. Gasp! Cough! Snort!

I can't believe anyone is taking this running, functional, complete Sherman tank seriously. What's their address? I'll give them $50 (Canadian because it is actually more than the US$ today), to take that old wreck off their hands. Somebody's gotta know the name of the guy in charge. Money talks.

toadmanstankpictures · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 704

- Maple_Leaf_Eh

What a cobbled together piece of wheezing old battlefield pickup! Junkyard hull, bastardized differential, replacement engine, scrapped engine deck, counterfeit gun, upgraded suspension, shadetree swap turret dragged off a firing range, etc. Five or six owners. Gasp! Cough! Snort!

I think you just gave the text book description of a M50. Laughing

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Camp Mabry running M4A3...

Wow, these former Israeli Shermans are stretching my ability to describe them in brief terms in the AFV Register entries!

Okay, the tank museum in Illinious is the Russell Military Museum... Jeff, I think that's what the first pic is of???

I'm guessing the second M50 is the one that used be owned by a private owner in Fredericksburg TX - Jeff, can you confirm that (or is this another former TX M50?), and if so where it is currently? Its painted in the same style as the one at the Virginia Museum of Military Vehicles - but that one has been there for years, and has never looked so good unless its been recently restored. Wink

Could be the one in Toole, UT I suppose...

Neil

SFC_Jeff_Button · Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 2:16 am Post subject: Re: Camp Mabry running M4A3...

Hello Neil,
The Tan painted Sherman is titled "Fred M50". The OD Sherman is titled "Kenosah M4A3 105 w/M50 turret". That tan Sherman is sharp looking.
My sons, age 8 and 13 didn't care it was "cobbled together" and quite frankly, neither did I. We had never seen a Sherman run and fire before, (even though they were blanks) so it was quite a treat for us. As you can see, my sons have been in, and gotton a ride through the desert in an M2 Halftrack, (the same one Doug got to drive, lucky devil!) climbed into an M578, and been in numerous helicopters, armor, jeeps, etc.... Now I just need to get them to that "Ontos" nearby here that Dontos is trying to hook me up with between their many baseball, soccer, football, basketball practices and games. My sons really enjoy military history, both ground and wingy-things. My next project is to get into the local MVPA, purchase a vehicle / trailer, and get them even more emmersed into the history. I have Doug to thank because until they met him, they just thought it was one of dad's weird hobbies, haha. Enough blabbing!

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