±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 309
Total: 309
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Community Forums
06: Member Screenshots
07: Community Forums
08: Home
09: News Archive
10: Home
11: Home
12: Statistics
13: Your Account
14: Community Forums
15: Home
16: Community Forums
17: Photo Gallery
18: Home
19: Home
20: Community Forums
21: Member Screenshots
22: Photo Gallery
23: Member Screenshots
24: Treasury
25: Photo Gallery
26: Member Screenshots
27: Community Forums
28: Member Screenshots
29: Home
30: Member Screenshots
31: Community Forums
32: Member Screenshots
33: Downloads
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Community Forums
37: Member Screenshots
38: Community Forums
39: Photo Gallery
40: Home
41: Home
42: Home
43: News Archive
44: Member Screenshots
45: Member Screenshots
46: Home
47: Downloads
48: Community Forums
49: Home
50: Home
51: Member Screenshots
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Member Screenshots
55: Downloads
56: Community Forums
57: Community Forums
58: Community Forums
59: Member Screenshots
60: Home
61: Community Forums
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Home
65: Downloads
66: News Archive
67: LinkToUs
68: Community Forums
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: Member Screenshots
72: Home
73: Member Screenshots
74: Community Forums
75: Community Forums
76: Home
77: Home
78: Community Forums
79: Community Forums
80: Member Screenshots
81: Community Forums
82: Home
83: Home
84: Home
85: Member Screenshots
86: Home
87: Member Screenshots
88: Home
89: Member Screenshots
90: Home
91: Community Forums
92: LinkToUs
93: Member Screenshots
94: Home
95: Member Screenshots
96: Photo Gallery
97: Community Forums
98: News
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Home
102: Community Forums
103: Community Forums
104: Community Forums
105: Photo Gallery
106: Photo Gallery
107: Member Screenshots
108: Community Forums
109: Home
110: Community Forums
111: Home
112: Home
113: Community Forums
114: Member Screenshots
115: Community Forums
116: Community Forums
117: Home
118: Home
119: Member Screenshots
120: Home
121: News Archive
122: Member Screenshots
123: Member Screenshots
124: News Archive
125: Community Forums
126: News Archive
127: Community Forums
128: Member Screenshots
129: Community Forums
130: Photo Gallery
131: Home
132: Community Forums
133: Community Forums
134: Photo Gallery
135: Home
136: Your Account
137: News Archive
138: Community Forums
139: Community Forums
140: Member Screenshots
141: Home
142: Community Forums
143: News Archive
144: Community Forums
145: Community Forums
146: News Archive
147: Member Screenshots
148: Home
149: Home
150: Home
151: Home
152: Photo Gallery
153: Home
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Home
157: Photo Gallery
158: Home
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Member Screenshots
162: Community Forums
163: Home
164: Community Forums
165: Community Forums
166: Home
167: Downloads
168: Home
169: Home
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Home
173: Home
174: Member Screenshots
175: Photo Gallery
176: Community Forums
177: Downloads
178: Community Forums
179: Community Forums
180: Community Forums
181: Photo Gallery
182: News Archive
183: News
184: Downloads
185: Downloads
186: Photo Gallery
187: Member Screenshots
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: Community Forums
191: Home
192: News Archive
193: Home
194: Photo Gallery
195: Member Screenshots
196: Community Forums
197: Home
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Home
202: Photo Gallery
203: Member Screenshots
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Downloads
207: Home
208: News Archive
209: Home
210: Community Forums
211: Home
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Member Screenshots
215: News Archive
216: Community Forums
217: Member Screenshots
218: Photo Gallery
219: Member Screenshots
220: Your Account
221: Community Forums
222: Photo Gallery
223: Downloads
224: Community Forums
225: Community Forums
226: Photo Gallery
227: Community Forums
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: Home
231: Home
232: Member Screenshots
233: Community Forums
234: Home
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Home
238: Member Screenshots
239: Community Forums
240: Community Forums
241: Home
242: Member Screenshots
243: Member Screenshots
244: Member Screenshots
245: Community Forums
246: News Archive
247: Home
248: Member Screenshots
249: Community Forums
250: Home
251: Photo Gallery
252: Home
253: Home
254: Photo Gallery
255: Downloads
256: Home
257: News Archive
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Downloads
261: Downloads
262: Community Forums
263: Member Screenshots
264: Community Forums
265: Member Screenshots
266: Home
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Member Screenshots
270: News Archive
271: News Archive
272: News Archive
273: Home
274: Home
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Member Screenshots
278: Downloads
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Your Account
282: Home
283: Community Forums
284: Photo Gallery
285: LinkToUs
286: Photo Gallery
287: Member Screenshots
288: Community Forums
289: Home
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Photo Gallery
294: Home
295: Home
296: Member Screenshots
297: Home
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: News Archive
301: Community Forums
302: Home
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Your Account
307: Member Screenshots
308: Statistics
309: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Churchill tank in use in US forces?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:07 pm
Post subject: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Hello,

I wonder if the Churchill tank was ever in use in the US Army forces during WW2, or at least used by UK troops in US fighting zones.
I've seen a photo of US troops on a Churchill tank and there is a Churchill Crocodile as a monument in Brest (France), which was a city liberated by the US troops in August 1944. The tank is said to have been used because of its flamethrower, to conquer a fortress. Any guess?

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

I think most pictures of Churchills with US troops would be in one of two instances

1) During Market Garden US paratroopers teamed up with British armor as it moved up the series of landing zones

2) later in the War US troops under 9th Army were put under 21st Army Group (Montgomery) control and worked with British troops. They were the Army on the leftmost flank of the 12 Army Group (Bradley) and were put under 21 AG control since they were on the North side of the Bulge in late December '44. They remained under 21 AG control through the Rhineland campaign so it is possible that at times they had Churchill unis assisting.

The 9th Army had also been used to cature Brest when they were first made operational (September '44?) but I don't know if they used any Churchills at that time. I can see where some sloppy research would be looking for info about 9th Army planning on using it for the early operations, find pictures tagged as 9th Army from later and connect the two

As a caveat I did this off the cuff from memory so you may want to look into the details further

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

There were several instances of specialized armour from 79 Armoured Division working with US troops in the ETO. I don't have my references right in front of me but I know that Churchill Crocodiles were used to support US troops during the Roer River campaign, and I think other.

Gary
Back to top
View user's profile
Dubliner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

No operational American Churchills that I can recall in David Fletcher's books, but he does not cover all the "funnies" used in ETO and MTO. Churchill didn't reach the Australians until the war in the Pacific was almost over, so PTO cases for sure.

As far as operating with Churchills...

I believe Churchills of the Guards Armored Brigade (Coldstream or Grenader Guards Battalion I don't remember which one) gave a lift to the 82nd Airborne during Varsity. There are several well know pictures of Churchills loaded down with American Paras after the jump across the Rhine.
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Thanks for your replies.

The photo showing troops on a Churchill could show either paratroopers or troops of the 9th Army. On the photo, one can see a GI with a Sturmgewehr rifle, so the picture may have been taken rather in 1945, IMO.

I said that Brest was liberated in August 1944, but it was indeed in mid-September 1944, Bob you're right.

I've found a website explaining that the liberation of the Fort Montbarey in Brest required the use of flamethrower tanks. The US troops didn't have any of that kind of tanks, so they asked the British troops to carry one there, to conquer the Fort.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

not a match, but an interesting tidbit I came across that I hadn't seen refered to before

It was during this time that the Corps discovered that British Churchill tanks could be fitted with guns from wrecked U.S. Sherman tanks. Since the guns of the Sherman tank could use a wider range of ammunition, substituting the Sherman gun extended the capability of the Churchill tank. The Corps outfitted two tank regiments with Sherman guns, and those regiments served in Italy.


source here

www.almc.army.mil/alog.../MS875.htm

Piney
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
claude_GILLONO
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- claude_GILLONO
It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH

I don't doubt you but for completeness do you have a reference?

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Shadow_Banshee
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 03, 2005
Posts: 575

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

www.rapid-fire.uk.com/...fences.pdf from a game but mentions units etc maybe the senario is taken from fact??
pagesperso-orange.fr/a...cit4an.htm

_________________
Lay me place and bake me Pie
I'm starving for me Gravy
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- Shadow_Banshee
http://www.rapid-fire.uk.com/brest_defences.pdf from a game but mentions units etc maybe the senario is taken from fact??


Well it's a start Smile I've got some stuff on the 29th Division I'll have to dig out and see if it mentions it. With the 29th being the local National Guard Divison I've gathered a couple books on it

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- piney
not a match, but an interesting tidbit I came across that I hadn't seen refered to before

It was during this time that the Corps discovered that British Churchill tanks could be fitted with guns from wrecked U.S. Sherman tanks. Since the guns of the Sherman tank could use a wider range of ammunition, substituting the Sherman gun extended the capability of the Churchill tank. The Corps outfitted two tank regiments with Sherman guns, and those regiments served in Italy.


source here

www.almc.army.mil/alog.../MS875.htm

Piney


It was called the N.A.75 . The N.A. stood for Noth Africa. They were used quite a bit in Italy.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Recently I read an article by one of the officers in charge of that project explaining what was involved to make it work. There were challanges such as the loader and gunner being on opposite sides of the turret in the two tanks that had to be overcome. I wish I could remember where I read it

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Jason_Bobrowich
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- bsmart
- claude_GILLONO
It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH

I don't doubt you but for completeness do you have a reference?


Pick up Osprey's "Churchill Infantry Tank 1941-1951".

There is text describing the actions of Churchills of 9 RTR and the 147 Regiment in support of the U.S. 10th Division in October 1944.

There is further text about the 6th Guards Tank Brigade supporting the U.S. 17th Airborne Division across the Rhine and then on to Munster.

There is an image of a 4th Coldstream Guards Churchill I would think taken in early 1945 with a bunch of U.S. 17th Airborne Division Troopers catching a casual ride on the back deck.
Back to top
View user's profile
Tanklord
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 817
Location: Louisiana
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Bob, I am like you, I read the same article about changing the guns in the Churchill. I am at work, but I think it may be in one of this past years AFV News.
Back to top
View user's profile Yahoo Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- Jason_Bobrowich
- bsmart
- claude_GILLONO
It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH

I don't doubt you but for completeness do you have a reference?


Pick up Osprey's "Churchill Infantry Tank 1941-1951".

There is text describing the actions of Churchills of 9 RTR and the 147 Regiment in support of the U.S. 10th Division in October 1944.

There is further text about the 6th Guards Tank Brigade supporting the U.S. 17th Airborne Division across the Rhine and then on to Munster.

There is an image of a 4th Coldstream Guards Churchill I would think taken in early 1945 with a bunch of U.S. 17th Airborne Division Troopers catching a casual ride on the back deck.


I was specifically looking for ant reference to them being used against Brest in august/September 1944. Given my comments about U.S. 9th Army being attached to 21 AG in late 44 I have no doubt they supported US troops in the surge into Germany

_________________
Bob Smart ([email protected])
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum