±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 303
Total: 303
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Community Forums
02: Home
03: Community Forums
04: Community Forums
05: Home
06: Community Forums
07: News Archive
08: Community Forums
09: Home
10: Downloads
11: Home
12: Photo Gallery
13: Community Forums
14: Community Forums
15: Community Forums
16: Photo Gallery
17: Community Forums
18: Home
19: Community Forums
20: Home
21: Community Forums
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Photo Gallery
25: Photo Gallery
26: Member Screenshots
27: Community Forums
28: Community Forums
29: Community Forums
30: Home
31: Community Forums
32: News Archive
33: Community Forums
34: Community Forums
35: Community Forums
36: Home
37: Community Forums
38: News Archive
39: News Archive
40: Community Forums
41: Member Screenshots
42: Community Forums
43: Photo Gallery
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Photo Gallery
48: Photo Gallery
49: Your Account
50: Community Forums
51: News
52: Community Forums
53: Community Forums
54: Home
55: Community Forums
56: Community Forums
57: Member Screenshots
58: Community Forums
59: Photo Gallery
60: Member Screenshots
61: Community Forums
62: Photo Gallery
63: Community Forums
64: Home
65: Photo Gallery
66: Community Forums
67: Community Forums
68: Community Forums
69: Community Forums
70: Photo Gallery
71: Photo Gallery
72: Community Forums
73: Home
74: Your Account
75: News Archive
76: Member Screenshots
77: Community Forums
78: Community Forums
79: Home
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Community Forums
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Community Forums
86: Photo Gallery
87: Photo Gallery
88: Photo Gallery
89: Community Forums
90: Photo Gallery
91: Photo Gallery
92: Community Forums
93: News Archive
94: Downloads
95: News Archive
96: Community Forums
97: Community Forums
98: Downloads
99: Community Forums
100: Community Forums
101: Member Screenshots
102: Home
103: Community Forums
104: News Archive
105: Community Forums
106: Home
107: Community Forums
108: Photo Gallery
109: Community Forums
110: News
111: Home
112: News
113: Community Forums
114: Community Forums
115: Community Forums
116: Photo Gallery
117: Photo Gallery
118: Community Forums
119: Home
120: Home
121: Community Forums
122: Member Screenshots
123: Community Forums
124: Photo Gallery
125: Home
126: Community Forums
127: Home
128: Community Forums
129: Home
130: Community Forums
131: Home
132: Photo Gallery
133: Community Forums
134: Community Forums
135: Home
136: Community Forums
137: Home
138: Community Forums
139: Photo Gallery
140: Community Forums
141: Home
142: Photo Gallery
143: News
144: Community Forums
145: Home
146: Community Forums
147: Member Screenshots
148: Downloads
149: Community Forums
150: Home
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Member Screenshots
154: Home
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Home
158: Community Forums
159: Photo Gallery
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Community Forums
163: Community Forums
164: Member Screenshots
165: Downloads
166: Community Forums
167: Photo Gallery
168: Home
169: Downloads
170: Community Forums
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Home
175: Community Forums
176: Community Forums
177: Home
178: Home
179: Photo Gallery
180: Community Forums
181: Home
182: Community Forums
183: Community Forums
184: Photo Gallery
185: Community Forums
186: Photo Gallery
187: Photo Gallery
188: Home
189: Community Forums
190: News Archive
191: Community Forums
192: Home
193: Photo Gallery
194: Community Forums
195: Photo Gallery
196: Home
197: Community Forums
198: Home
199: Community Forums
200: Downloads
201: Community Forums
202: Community Forums
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Photo Gallery
207: Photo Gallery
208: Community Forums
209: Your Account
210: Community Forums
211: News Archive
212: Home
213: Member Screenshots
214: Member Screenshots
215: Member Screenshots
216: Community Forums
217: Home
218: Community Forums
219: Home
220: Member Screenshots
221: Photo Gallery
222: Community Forums
223: Community Forums
224: Photo Gallery
225: Community Forums
226: Downloads
227: Community Forums
228: Home
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Community Forums
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Home
236: Photo Gallery
237: Community Forums
238: Photo Gallery
239: Downloads
240: Community Forums
241: Search
242: Community Forums
243: Downloads
244: Community Forums
245: Home
246: Home
247: Community Forums
248: Downloads
249: Member Screenshots
250: Member Screenshots
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Community Forums
254: Community Forums
255: Community Forums
256: Home
257: Home
258: Community Forums
259: Community Forums
260: Community Forums
261: Member Screenshots
262: Community Forums
263: Downloads
264: Community Forums
265: Community Forums
266: Community Forums
267: News
268: Community Forums
269: Community Forums
270: Photo Gallery
271: Community Forums
272: Home
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Photo Gallery
276: Community Forums
277: Home
278: Community Forums
279: Community Forums
280: Photo Gallery
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Community Forums
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: News Archive
288: Community Forums
289: Home
290: Community Forums
291: Member Screenshots
292: Community Forums
293: Home
294: Home
295: Community Forums
296: Photo Gallery
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Community Forums
303: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Churchill tank in use in US forces?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Go to page 1, 2  Next
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:07 pm
Post subject: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Hello,

I wonder if the Churchill tank was ever in use in the US Army forces during WW2, or at least used by UK troops in US fighting zones.
I've seen a photo of US troops on a Churchill tank and there is a Churchill Crocodile as a monument in Brest (France), which was a city liberated by the US troops in August 1944. The tank is said to have been used because of its flamethrower, to conquer a fortress. Any guess?

Pierre-Olivier

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

I think most pictures of Churchills with US troops would be in one of two instances

1) During Market Garden US paratroopers teamed up with British armor as it moved up the series of landing zones

2) later in the War US troops under 9th Army were put under 21st Army Group (Montgomery) control and worked with British troops. They were the Army on the leftmost flank of the 12 Army Group (Bradley) and were put under 21 AG control since they were on the North side of the Bulge in late December '44. They remained under 21 AG control through the Rhineland campaign so it is possible that at times they had Churchill unis assisting.

The 9th Army had also been used to cature Brest when they were first made operational (September '44?) but I don't know if they used any Churchills at that time. I can see where some sloppy research would be looking for info about 9th Army planning on using it for the early operations, find pictures tagged as 9th Army from later and connect the two

As a caveat I did this off the cuff from memory so you may want to look into the details further

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
binder001
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 363

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 3:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

There were several instances of specialized armour from 79 Armoured Division working with US troops in the ETO. I don't have my references right in front of me but I know that Churchill Crocodiles were used to support US troops during the Roer River campaign, and I think other.

Gary
Back to top
View user's profile
Dubliner
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 94

PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:09 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

No operational American Churchills that I can recall in David Fletcher's books, but he does not cover all the "funnies" used in ETO and MTO. Churchill didn't reach the Australians until the war in the Pacific was almost over, so PTO cases for sure.

As far as operating with Churchills...

I believe Churchills of the Guards Armored Brigade (Coldstream or Grenader Guards Battalion I don't remember which one) gave a lift to the 82nd Airborne during Varsity. There are several well know pictures of Churchills loaded down with American Paras after the jump across the Rhine.
Back to top
View user's profile
the_shadock
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: May 27, 2006
Posts: 2865
Location: Normandy, France
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Thanks for your replies.

The photo showing troops on a Churchill could show either paratroopers or troops of the 9th Army. On the photo, one can see a GI with a Sturmgewehr rifle, so the picture may have been taken rather in 1945, IMO.

I said that Brest was liberated in August 1944, but it was indeed in mid-September 1944, Bob you're right.

I've found a website explaining that the liberation of the Fort Montbarey in Brest required the use of flamethrower tanks. The US troops didn't have any of that kind of tanks, so they asked the British troops to carry one there, to conquer the Fort.

P-O

_________________
soldat_ryan @ hotmail.com

Looking for photos of Sherman manufacturer's plates
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
piney
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 2330
Location: Republic of Southern New Jersey
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

not a match, but an interesting tidbit I came across that I hadn't seen refered to before

It was during this time that the Corps discovered that British Churchill tanks could be fitted with guns from wrecked U.S. Sherman tanks. Since the guns of the Sherman tank could use a wider range of ammunition, substituting the Sherman gun extended the capability of the Churchill tank. The Corps outfitted two tank regiments with Sherman guns, and those regiments served in Italy.


source here

www.almc.army.mil/alog.../MS875.htm

Piney
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
claude_GILLONO
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 25, 2006
Posts: 80

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:14 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:34 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- claude_GILLONO
It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH

I don't doubt you but for completeness do you have a reference?

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Shadow_Banshee
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Feb 03, 2005
Posts: 575

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:13 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

www.rapid-fire.uk.com/...fences.pdf from a game but mentions units etc maybe the senario is taken from fact??
pagesperso-orange.fr/a...cit4an.htm

_________________
Lay me place and bake me Pie
I'm starving for me Gravy
Back to top
View user's profile
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:47 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- Shadow_Banshee
http://www.rapid-fire.uk.com/brest_defences.pdf from a game but mentions units etc maybe the senario is taken from fact??


Well it's a start Smile I've got some stuff on the 29th Division I'll have to dig out and see if it mentions it. With the 29th being the local National Guard Divison I've gathered a couple books on it

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
tanker2010
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 20, 2006
Posts: 264
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:46 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- piney
not a match, but an interesting tidbit I came across that I hadn't seen refered to before

It was during this time that the Corps discovered that British Churchill tanks could be fitted with guns from wrecked U.S. Sherman tanks. Since the guns of the Sherman tank could use a wider range of ammunition, substituting the Sherman gun extended the capability of the Churchill tank. The Corps outfitted two tank regiments with Sherman guns, and those regiments served in Italy.


source here

www.almc.army.mil/alog.../MS875.htm

Piney


It was called the N.A.75 . The N.A. stood for Noth Africa. They were used quite a bit in Italy.
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 6:33 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Recently I read an article by one of the officers in charge of that project explaining what was involved to make it work. There were challanges such as the loader and gunner being on opposite sides of the turret in the two tanks that had to be overcome. I wish I could remember where I read it

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Jason_Bobrowich
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Aug 09, 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:36 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- bsmart
- claude_GILLONO
It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH

I don't doubt you but for completeness do you have a reference?


Pick up Osprey's "Churchill Infantry Tank 1941-1951".

There is text describing the actions of Churchills of 9 RTR and the 147 Regiment in support of the U.S. 10th Division in October 1944.

There is further text about the 6th Guards Tank Brigade supporting the U.S. 17th Airborne Division across the Rhine and then on to Munster.

There is an image of a 4th Coldstream Guards Churchill I would think taken in early 1945 with a bunch of U.S. 17th Airborne Division Troopers catching a casual ride on the back deck.
Back to top
View user's profile
Tanklord
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 817
Location: Louisiana
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

Bob, I am like you, I read the same article about changing the guns in the Churchill. I am at work, but I think it may be in one of this past years AFV News.
Back to top
View user's profile Yahoo Messenger
bsmart
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 2523
Location: Central Maryland
PostPosted: Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Churchill tank in use in US forces?

- Jason_Bobrowich
- bsmart
- claude_GILLONO
It's true some Crocodiles were used to support the US Forces that liberated Brest, with British crews.
HTH

I don't doubt you but for completeness do you have a reference?


Pick up Osprey's "Churchill Infantry Tank 1941-1951".

There is text describing the actions of Churchills of 9 RTR and the 147 Regiment in support of the U.S. 10th Division in October 1944.

There is further text about the 6th Guards Tank Brigade supporting the U.S. 17th Airborne Division across the Rhine and then on to Munster.

There is an image of a 4th Coldstream Guards Churchill I would think taken in early 1945 with a bunch of U.S. 17th Airborne Division Troopers catching a casual ride on the back deck.


I was specifically looking for ant reference to them being used against Brest in august/September 1944. Given my comments about U.S. 9th Army being attached to 21 AG in late 44 I have no doubt they supported US troops in the surge into Germany

_________________
Bob Smart (bsmart@xecu.net)
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 2
All times are GMT - 6 Hours
Go to page 1, 2  Next



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum