±Recent Visitors

Recent Visitors to Com-Central!

±User Info-big


Welcome Anonymous

Nickname
Password

Membership:
Latest: HighestAce
New Today: 0
New Yesterday: 0
Overall: 6648

People Online:
Members: 0
Visitors: 914
Total: 914
Who Is Where:
 Visitors:
01: Home
02: Downloads
03: Community Forums
04: Home
05: Home
06: Community Forums
07: Photo Gallery
08: Photo Gallery
09: Community Forums
10: Downloads
11: News Archive
12: Community Forums
13: Home
14: Community Forums
15: Member Screenshots
16: Community Forums
17: Community Forums
18: Community Forums
19: Home
20: Photo Gallery
21: Downloads
22: Community Forums
23: Community Forums
24: Community Forums
25: Home
26: Community Forums
27: Member Screenshots
28: Community Forums
29: News
30: Your Account
31: Community Forums
32: Community Forums
33: Home
34: Community Forums
35: Home
36: Downloads
37: Community Forums
38: Photo Gallery
39: Community Forums
40: Community Forums
41: Your Account
42: Your Account
43: Community Forums
44: Community Forums
45: Community Forums
46: Community Forums
47: Statistics
48: Community Forums
49: Community Forums
50: Community Forums
51: Community Forums
52: Community Forums
53: Home
54: Community Forums
55: Community Forums
56: Downloads
57: Home
58: Photo Gallery
59: Search
60: Your Account
61: Home
62: Community Forums
63: Community Forums
64: Photo Gallery
65: Your Account
66: Member Screenshots
67: Home
68: Photo Gallery
69: Home
70: Community Forums
71: Home
72: Statistics
73: Community Forums
74: Home
75: News Archive
76: Photo Gallery
77: Community Forums
78: Home
79: Community Forums
80: Community Forums
81: Community Forums
82: Photo Gallery
83: Community Forums
84: Community Forums
85: Photo Gallery
86: Home
87: Community Forums
88: Home
89: Community Forums
90: Statistics
91: Photo Gallery
92: Home
93: Photo Gallery
94: Community Forums
95: Home
96: Member Screenshots
97: Community Forums
98: Photo Gallery
99: Photo Gallery
100: Community Forums
101: Downloads
102: Photo Gallery
103: Home
104: Community Forums
105: Member Screenshots
106: Community Forums
107: Photo Gallery
108: Downloads
109: Photo Gallery
110: Home
111: News Archive
112: Photo Gallery
113: Member Screenshots
114: Home
115: Community Forums
116: News Archive
117: Community Forums
118: Member Screenshots
119: Statistics
120: Community Forums
121: Downloads
122: Community Forums
123: Member Screenshots
124: Community Forums
125: Home
126: Photo Gallery
127: Community Forums
128: Photo Gallery
129: Home
130: Home
131: Home
132: Home
133: Statistics
134: Home
135: Photo Gallery
136: Community Forums
137: Community Forums
138: Home
139: Community Forums
140: Community Forums
141: Photo Gallery
142: Community Forums
143: Community Forums
144: Photo Gallery
145: Photo Gallery
146: Community Forums
147: Home
148: Member Screenshots
149: Community Forums
150: Photo Gallery
151: Community Forums
152: Community Forums
153: Community Forums
154: Member Screenshots
155: Community Forums
156: Community Forums
157: Community Forums
158: Member Screenshots
159: Community Forums
160: Community Forums
161: Community Forums
162: Member Screenshots
163: Community Forums
164: Photo Gallery
165: Home
166: News
167: Member Screenshots
168: Community Forums
169: Community Forums
170: Photo Gallery
171: Community Forums
172: Community Forums
173: Community Forums
174: Community Forums
175: News Archive
176: Community Forums
177: Community Forums
178: Photo Gallery
179: Home
180: Home
181: Community Forums
182: Community Forums
183: Photo Gallery
184: Home
185: Home
186: Home
187: Community Forums
188: Downloads
189: Community Forums
190: News Archive
191: Community Forums
192: Community Forums
193: Community Forums
194: Community Forums
195: Community Forums
196: Member Screenshots
197: Community Forums
198: Community Forums
199: Community Forums
200: Community Forums
201: Community Forums
202: Member Screenshots
203: Community Forums
204: Community Forums
205: Home
206: Community Forums
207: Community Forums
208: Community Forums
209: Member Screenshots
210: Community Forums
211: Member Screenshots
212: Community Forums
213: Community Forums
214: Community Forums
215: Community Forums
216: Downloads
217: Photo Gallery
218: Your Account
219: Photo Gallery
220: Home
221: Community Forums
222: Home
223: Community Forums
224: News Archive
225: Photo Gallery
226: Member Screenshots
227: Community Forums
228: Community Forums
229: Community Forums
230: Community Forums
231: Home
232: Community Forums
233: Community Forums
234: Community Forums
235: Community Forums
236: Community Forums
237: Community Forums
238: Home
239: Community Forums
240: Member Screenshots
241: Home
242: Community Forums
243: Community Forums
244: Community Forums
245: News Archive
246: Community Forums
247: Community Forums
248: Community Forums
249: Community Forums
250: Community Forums
251: Community Forums
252: Community Forums
253: Member Screenshots
254: Photo Gallery
255: Community Forums
256: Downloads
257: Community Forums
258: Statistics
259: News Archive
260: Community Forums
261: Photo Gallery
262: Community Forums
263: Community Forums
264: Photo Gallery
265: Community Forums
266: Home
267: Community Forums
268: Community Forums
269: Downloads
270: Community Forums
271: Community Forums
272: Community Forums
273: Community Forums
274: Community Forums
275: Community Forums
276: Community Forums
277: Community Forums
278: Member Screenshots
279: Community Forums
280: Community Forums
281: Community Forums
282: Community Forums
283: Community Forums
284: Member Screenshots
285: Community Forums
286: Community Forums
287: Community Forums
288: Community Forums
289: Community Forums
290: Community Forums
291: Community Forums
292: Community Forums
293: Community Forums
294: Home
295: Community Forums
296: Member Screenshots
297: Community Forums
298: Community Forums
299: Home
300: Community Forums
301: Community Forums
302: Member Screenshots
303: Community Forums
304: Community Forums
305: Community Forums
306: Photo Gallery
307: Community Forums
308: Community Forums
309: Community Forums
310: Community Forums
311: Community Forums
312: Community Forums
313: Community Forums
314: News Archive
315: Community Forums
316: Community Forums
317: Community Forums
318: Member Screenshots
319: Community Forums
320: Community Forums
321: Member Screenshots
322: Home
323: Community Forums
324: Downloads
325: Community Forums
326: Member Screenshots
327: Community Forums
328: Home
329: Your Account
330: Community Forums
331: Photo Gallery
332: Community Forums
333: Community Forums
334: Photo Gallery
335: Community Forums
336: Member Screenshots
337: Community Forums
338: Member Screenshots
339: Statistics
340: Community Forums
341: Photo Gallery
342: Community Forums
343: Community Forums
344: Photo Gallery
345: Photo Gallery
346: Statistics
347: Community Forums
348: Downloads
349: Community Forums
350: Community Forums
351: Community Forums
352: Member Screenshots
353: Home
354: Community Forums
355: Home
356: Home
357: Downloads
358: Downloads
359: Member Screenshots
360: Home
361: Home
362: Photo Gallery
363: Member Screenshots
364: Home
365: Community Forums
366: Home
367: Community Forums
368: Home
369: Downloads
370: Photo Gallery
371: Home
372: Home
373: Home
374: Community Forums
375: Community Forums
376: Community Forums
377: Photo Gallery
378: Community Forums
379: Community Forums
380: Home
381: Photo Gallery
382: Community Forums
383: Community Forums
384: Community Forums
385: Community Forums
386: Member Screenshots
387: Home
388: Community Forums
389: Home
390: Downloads
391: Community Forums
392: Community Forums
393: Community Forums
394: Downloads
395: Community Forums
396: Home
397: Community Forums
398: Statistics
399: Community Forums
400: Photo Gallery
401: Community Forums
402: Community Forums
403: Home
404: Community Forums
405: Community Forums
406: Community Forums
407: Community Forums
408: Downloads
409: Community Forums
410: Member Screenshots
411: Downloads
412: Home
413: Downloads
414: Member Screenshots
415: Community Forums
416: Community Forums
417: Photo Gallery
418: Community Forums
419: Photo Gallery
420: Community Forums
421: Community Forums
422: Home
423: Downloads
424: Home
425: Community Forums
426: Photo Gallery
427: Community Forums
428: Downloads
429: Photo Gallery
430: Home
431: Home
432: Community Forums
433: Your Account
434: Community Forums
435: Community Forums
436: Contact
437: Community Forums
438: Community Forums
439: Community Forums
440: Home
441: Photo Gallery
442: News Archive
443: Community Forums
444: Community Forums
445: Home
446: Community Forums
447: Community Forums
448: Community Forums
449: Downloads
450: Photo Gallery
451: Statistics
452: Community Forums
453: Photo Gallery
454: Photo Gallery
455: Downloads
456: Home
457: Community Forums
458: Community Forums
459: Your Account
460: Downloads
461: Community Forums
462: Community Forums
463: Community Forums
464: Community Forums
465: Community Forums
466: Community Forums
467: Community Forums
468: Downloads
469: Photo Gallery
470: Photo Gallery
471: Community Forums
472: Statistics
473: Community Forums
474: Home
475: Community Forums
476: Your Account
477: Member Screenshots
478: Community Forums
479: Community Forums
480: Community Forums
481: Community Forums
482: Community Forums
483: Community Forums
484: Community Forums
485: Photo Gallery
486: Community Forums
487: Community Forums
488: Community Forums
489: Community Forums
490: Home
491: Community Forums
492: Home
493: Community Forums
494: Community Forums
495: Home
496: Community Forums
497: Home
498: Community Forums
499: Community Forums
500: Community Forums
501: Home
502: Community Forums
503: Community Forums
504: Home
505: Home
506: Home
507: Community Forums
508: News
509: Home
510: Photo Gallery
511: Community Forums
512: Community Forums
513: Home
514: Community Forums
515: Community Forums
516: Community Forums
517: Community Forums
518: Community Forums
519: Community Forums
520: Home
521: Community Forums
522: Home
523: Home
524: Home
525: Photo Gallery
526: Community Forums
527: Photo Gallery
528: Community Forums
529: Community Forums
530: Community Forums
531: Downloads
532: Community Forums
533: Community Forums
534: Community Forums
535: Photo Gallery
536: Downloads
537: Home
538: Home
539: Community Forums
540: Photo Gallery
541: Home
542: Community Forums
543: Community Forums
544: Home
545: Photo Gallery
546: Home
547: Statistics
548: News Archive
549: Photo Gallery
550: Community Forums
551: Member Screenshots
552: Community Forums
553: Community Forums
554: Member Screenshots
555: Member Screenshots
556: Member Screenshots
557: Community Forums
558: Community Forums
559: Member Screenshots
560: News Archive
561: Community Forums
562: Community Forums
563: Member Screenshots
564: Community Forums
565: Home
566: Community Forums
567: Community Forums
568: Community Forums
569: Home
570: Community Forums
571: Community Forums
572: Community Forums
573: Photo Gallery
574: Community Forums
575: Community Forums
576: Photo Gallery
577: News
578: Photo Gallery
579: Community Forums
580: Home
581: Member Screenshots
582: Member Screenshots
583: Home
584: Member Screenshots
585: Downloads
586: Community Forums
587: Community Forums
588: Member Screenshots
589: Photo Gallery
590: Community Forums
591: News Archive
592: News Archive
593: News Archive
594: News Archive
595: Home
596: Member Screenshots
597: Photo Gallery
598: Community Forums
599: Photo Gallery
600: Downloads
601: Photo Gallery
602: Community Forums
603: Member Screenshots
604: News Archive
605: Community Forums
606: Community Forums
607: Community Forums
608: Community Forums
609: Community Forums
610: Community Forums
611: Downloads
612: Photo Gallery
613: News Archive
614: Community Forums
615: Community Forums
616: Home
617: Member Screenshots
618: Member Screenshots
619: Search
620: Member Screenshots
621: Downloads
622: Statistics
623: Community Forums
624: Community Forums
625: Community Forums
626: Community Forums
627: Home
628: Community Forums
629: Your Account
630: Community Forums
631: Community Forums
632: Community Forums
633: Community Forums
634: News Archive
635: Community Forums
636: Community Forums
637: Community Forums
638: Community Forums
639: Community Forums
640: Community Forums
641: Community Forums
642: Photo Gallery
643: Home
644: Photo Gallery
645: Community Forums
646: Community Forums
647: News Archive
648: News
649: Community Forums
650: Community Forums
651: Community Forums
652: Community Forums
653: Community Forums
654: Community Forums
655: Community Forums
656: Member Screenshots
657: Community Forums
658: Community Forums
659: Community Forums
660: Community Forums
661: Community Forums
662: Home
663: Downloads
664: Community Forums
665: Community Forums
666: Community Forums
667: Community Forums
668: Community Forums
669: Community Forums
670: Community Forums
671: Community Forums
672: Community Forums
673: Community Forums
674: Photo Gallery
675: Community Forums
676: Statistics
677: Your Account
678: Community Forums
679: Photo Gallery
680: Member Screenshots
681: Community Forums
682: Community Forums
683: News Archive
684: Community Forums
685: Statistics
686: Community Forums
687: Community Forums
688: Community Forums
689: Community Forums
690: Community Forums
691: Community Forums
692: Community Forums
693: Community Forums
694: Community Forums
695: Community Forums
696: News Archive
697: Community Forums
698: Community Forums
699: Community Forums
700: Community Forums
701: News Archive
702: News Archive
703: Community Forums
704: Home
705: Community Forums
706: Community Forums
707: Community Forums
708: Photo Gallery
709: Community Forums
710: Community Forums
711: Community Forums
712: Photo Gallery
713: Community Forums
714: Community Forums
715: Community Forums
716: Community Forums
717: Community Forums
718: Member Screenshots
719: Community Forums
720: Community Forums
721: News Archive
722: Community Forums
723: Community Forums
724: Community Forums
725: Community Forums
726: Community Forums
727: Community Forums
728: Community Forums
729: Community Forums
730: Home
731: Community Forums
732: Photo Gallery
733: Community Forums
734: Member Screenshots
735: Member Screenshots
736: Community Forums
737: Community Forums
738: Community Forums
739: Community Forums
740: Home
741: Photo Gallery
742: Community Forums
743: Photo Gallery
744: Photo Gallery
745: Member Screenshots
746: Photo Gallery
747: Community Forums
748: Community Forums
749: Community Forums
750: Community Forums
751: Downloads
752: Member Screenshots
753: Downloads
754: Community Forums
755: Community Forums
756: Community Forums
757: Community Forums
758: Photo Gallery
759: Community Forums
760: Community Forums
761: Community Forums
762: Community Forums
763: Community Forums
764: Member Screenshots
765: Community Forums
766: Community Forums
767: Community Forums
768: Photo Gallery
769: Community Forums
770: Community Forums
771: Community Forums
772: Community Forums
773: Photo Gallery
774: Community Forums
775: Community Forums
776: Community Forums
777: Community Forums
778: Photo Gallery
779: Photo Gallery
780: Community Forums
781: Home
782: Statistics
783: Community Forums
784: Community Forums
785: Member Screenshots
786: Community Forums
787: Community Forums
788: Statistics
789: Community Forums
790: Photo Gallery
791: Community Forums
792: Community Forums
793: Community Forums
794: Community Forums
795: Community Forums
796: Community Forums
797: Community Forums
798: Photo Gallery
799: Community Forums
800: Community Forums
801: Member Screenshots
802: Community Forums
803: Community Forums
804: Member Screenshots
805: News Archive
806: Photo Gallery
807: Community Forums
808: Home
809: Community Forums
810: Photo Gallery
811: Member Screenshots
812: Community Forums
813: Community Forums
814: Downloads
815: Statistics
816: Community Forums
817: Community Forums
818: Community Forums
819: Community Forums
820: Home
821: Community Forums
822: Photo Gallery
823: Community Forums
824: Community Forums
825: Community Forums
826: Home
827: Community Forums
828: Statistics
829: Home
830: Community Forums
831: Community Forums
832: Community Forums
833: Community Forums
834: Home
835: Photo Gallery
836: Community Forums
837: Community Forums
838: Downloads
839: News
840: Photo Gallery
841: News Archive
842: Community Forums
843: Community Forums
844: Community Forums
845: Community Forums
846: Community Forums
847: Community Forums
848: Photo Gallery
849: Community Forums
850: Home
851: Community Forums
852: Community Forums
853: Home
854: Community Forums
855: Photo Gallery
856: Community Forums
857: Home
858: Community Forums
859: Statistics
860: Member Screenshots
861: Photo Gallery
862: Home
863: Community Forums
864: Community Forums
865: Community Forums
866: Photo Gallery
867: Home
868: News
869: Community Forums
870: Community Forums
871: Member Screenshots
872: Community Forums
873: Community Forums
874: Member Screenshots
875: Member Screenshots
876: Home
877: Photo Gallery
878: Community Forums
879: Community Forums
880: Member Screenshots
881: Member Screenshots
882: Community Forums
883: Community Forums
884: Photo Gallery
885: Community Forums
886: Photo Gallery
887: Photo Gallery
888: Home
889: Community Forums
890: Community Forums
891: Photo Gallery
892: News Archive
893: Home
894: Home
895: Home
896: Member Screenshots
897: Downloads
898: Community Forums
899: Home
900: Home
901: Member Screenshots
902: Member Screenshots
903: Community Forums
904: Photo Gallery
905: Community Forums
906: Home
907: Photo Gallery
908: Community Forums
909: Home
910: Community Forums
911: Community Forums
912: Community Forums
913: Home
914: Community Forums

Staff Online:

No staff members are online!
Shillelagh missile - AA capability?
The AFV ASSOCIATION was formed in 1964 to support the thoughts and research of all those interested in Armored Fighting Vehicles and related topics, such as AFV drawings. The emphasis has always been on sharing information and communicating with other members of similar interests; e.g. German armor, Japanese AFVs, or whatever.
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page     Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board

View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Kurt_Laughlin
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 24, 2006
Posts: 577

PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:10 am
Post subject: Shillelagh missile - AA capability?

Was it possible for a Shillelagh to hit an aircraft (a helicopter being most probable)? Was the capability ever examined?

KL
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:24 am
Post subject: Re: Shillelagh missile - AA capability?

The aircraft would have to be pretty much absolutely stationary or moving no faster than a medium speed ground vehicle, like a dead hover helicopter for that to work. The key to a Shillelagh hit was to hold on target and ignore the movements of the missile from the designated target because there was quite a lag in corrections from the feedback loop of this beam-rider.

Trying to follow something moving with ANY real speed would be out of the question. Attempting to "fly" the missile onto course corrections was emphatically discouraged.

I suspect the lag of the missile as it corrected it's flight down the cone of the beam would make tracking an aircraft, even low performance, basically impossible. Don't know if it was ever attempted. It certainly wasn't discussed with regard to either of the two types of Shillelagh-capable vehicles I served on within my earshot.
Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Shillelagh missile - AA capability?

I was involved in a test at Fort Bliss in 1978 out at the McGregor Range. They were writing the doctrine for Armored Cavalry engagement of aerial targets. I was a turret mechanic for the test. A total of 27 Shillelaghs were fired at a moving helicopter. None hit it but they were all very close. After the firing I found a malfunction in the system that must have occured during the first lauch. I started telling people that the test was invalid due to the error. I was given a 'gag' order not to talk about this fact. Probably because of the large amount of money spent. I think had this error not occured then it would have hit it's target. They also fired the 20mm cannons on the M114A2's and the .50 cals on the M113's. Fort Knox had sent out a prototype tank I think designated M60A1E3. It fired sabot at the targets but I don't remember if it hit it. The M60 had rotary shock absorbers as found on the M1 and the sprocket guard as found on the M1. Anyway, the Shillelagh test was bogus and I wish we could have done it over. This is technical but I'll try and explain. The Shillelagh is 'watched' by an optical tracker (IR). Before firing you do a 'tracker alignment test' where a prism is moved in front of the tracker and it projects a light on the tracker simulating the missile. After this test the prism resets and moves out of the way. In this case the prism failed to reset and it was in front of the tracker during firing. Essentially blinding the system. Otherwise I believe it would have hit it.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Joe_D
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 29, 2006
Posts: 2067
Location: Razorback Country
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Shillelagh missile - AA capability?

That M60 sounds like it was the ATB model,

Was one of the proposed upgrades meant for the A3 program that wasn't accepted. Only thing that actually was implemented was a stronger torsion bar using a newer manufacturing process that was interchangeable with the older system. Was an off shoot from the tube over bar experiment that was never implemented either. The sprocket guard sounds like they were testing a guide free carrier like that on the M1. The firing tests were most likely testing the new XM-21 FCS's ability to engage aerial targets with APDS/APFSDS, being it could calculate lead angles and the velocity of these rounds enabled it to actually apply a workable offset.

Wasn't there an indicator for the gunner to let him know a system MALF happened when the prism didn't reset? If not maybe there should have.

Nice history, maybe a report is out there somewhere explaining everything (Minus your observations Smile )

Joe D
Back to top
View user's profile Photo Gallery
MarkHolloway
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Apr 08, 2006
Posts: 2054
Location: Beatty, Nevada
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:08 am
Post subject: Re: Shillelagh missile - AA capability?

Joe, If the gunner were to run a system self-test it would have shown the error. But in the operating mode the system wouldn't show it. The warning lights just came on when testing the system. I checked the system personally prior to the first missile and it passed. So I've always thought the prism didn't reset after I finished testing the system. The prism was spring loaded and a solenoid had to actuate in order for it to reset.

_________________
"TUMBLEWEED"
Back to top
View user's profile Send e-mail Photo Gallery
Doug_Kibbey
Power User

Offline Offline
Joined: Jan 23, 2006
Posts: 4678
Location: The Great Satan
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 1:40 am
Post subject: Re: Shillelagh missile - AA capability?

- MarkHolloway
Joe, If the gunner were to run a system self-test it would have shown the error. But in the operating mode the system wouldn't show it. The warning lights just came on when testing the system. I checked the system personally prior to the first missile and it passed. So I've always thought the prism didn't reset after I finished testing the system. The prism was spring loaded and a solenoid had to actuate in order for it to reset.


I'm surprised the program director didn't have the missile guidance subsystem check repeated at some point during the test, Shillelagh prices being what they were. I'm not so sure that it was a system malfunction as much as the limitations inherent in the system, though. Had occasion to fire a few Shillelaghs and I have my doubts about tracking and hitting anything at LoPer flight speeds in excess of about 60mph. What was the test aircraft doing....hover, straight and level? Sky or ground in background? At what elevation above horizon?



Back to top
View user's profile Visit poster's website Photo Gallery
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    Reply to topic    Printer Friendly Page    Forum Index ›  AFV News Discussion Board
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT - 6 Hours



Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum