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Dontos · Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

It all seems to go back to,....where did it originate?

As I understand it, the Afghan discovered WWI TANKS (!!) are supposed to have been U.S. manufactured, FT17's (aka FT18 ?, M1918 ?).

I don't know what the exact model is called. There are some differences between 'our' M1918 & FT17, so I assume them to be different models (ie FT17 being French make & FT18 being US make of same tank).

I guess I need to add this subject to my 'gotta find out for myself' file.

Regards
Don

armyjunk2 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Sep 22, 2006 Posts: 1416

notice both types of turrets on French machines, I go for the mufflers,,its easy and simple

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

Also, the French version had multi-part wooden front wheels (with an obvious ring of bolts) where the US ones had one-piece metal ones.

As Neil says, there is some controversy over 'FT-18', in fact even 'FT-17'. The French apparently only ever used the term FT, and allocating model numbers (to represent 1917 and 1918) has been done since so is not 'official'. In any case, they only apply to French vehicles, the US one is M1917 (no 'FT').

Dontos · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

- TrevorLarkum

Also, the French version had multi-part wooden front wheels (with an obvious ring of bolts) where the US ones had one-piece metal ones.

Ah HA!! There are both examples here, which match up to supposed manufacturer. That makes sense, Thank you!

As Neil says, there is some controversy over 'FT-18', in fact even 'FT-17'. The French apparently only ever used the term FT, and allocating model numbers (to represent 1917 and 1918) has been done since so is not 'official'. In any case, they only apply to French vehicles, the US one is M1917 (no 'FT').

Okay, so,....all US made FT17's (with metal front idler wheels) are actually M1917's??

"MY BRAIN HURTS!!" (ref: one of my favorite lines ala Monty Python)
Mr. Green

Don

the_shadock · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

- TrevorLarkum

Also, the French version had multi-part wooden front wheels (with an obvious ring of bolts) where the US ones had one-piece metal ones.

However, the wooden parts of the wheels were sometimes replaced by metal parts (because of the wood decay). But the French wheel has a very different design compared to the US one, and even with metal sheets replacing wood ones, it can be easily identified as French.

P-O

MarkHolloway · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

Fort Brown, Brownsville, Texas circa 1918

armyjunk2 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Sep 22, 2006 Posts: 1416

again the muffler always works.........always

MarkHolloway · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

So is this an FT-17? This is the picture that got my curiosity going Smile

armyjunk2 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Sep 22, 2006 Posts: 1416

No muffler on this side I believe would make this a French Renault FT17..plus I don't if this is always the case but the US tanks seem to have lifting points just to the rear of the turret and I don't seem to see any on the French models....The US models had Buda engines in them...is it snowing in chicago?

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

- Dontos

Okay, so,....all US made FT17's (with metal front idler wheels) are actually M1917's??

FT-17s were built (in France) by Renault. Most were used by the French army, but some were given to the US army & used in France (such as by Patton). There are very few actual FT-17s in the US. One American combat-survivor FT-17 is at the Fort Meade Museum.

M1917s were a license-built copy made in the US. Mostly used for training in the 1920s. None, that I am aware of, went to France and actually fought. A few surviving examples have bullet marks from testing...

Neil

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

- the_shadock

- TrevorLarkum

Also, the French version had multi-part wooden front wheels (with an obvious ring of bolts) where the US ones had one-piece metal ones.

However, the wooden parts of the wheels were sometimes replaced by metal parts (because of the wood decay). But the French wheel has a very different design compared to the US one, and even with metal sheets replacing wood ones, it can be easily identified as French.

P-O

Yeah, I didnt think you could trust the wooden vs metal wheels aspect...

Neil

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

According to my info, including from Hayes Otoupalik (best source of info I have found), is for the following FT-17s & M1917s in the US:

FT-17s:
Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor, FORT KNOX, KY (1)
Jackson Barracks Military Museum, NEW ORLEANS, LA (1)
Fort George G. Meade Museum, FORT GEORGE G. MEADE, MD (1 - “Five of Hearts" - US Army WWI combat veteran)
National World War I Museum at Liberty Memorial, KANSAS CITY, MO (1, French Army WWI combat veteran)
Brent Mullins Jeep Parts, COLLEGE STATION, TX (1)

FT-17 with M1917 turret:
US Army Ordnance Museum, ABERDEEN PROVING GROUND, MD (1 - "K-K-K-Katy;" supposedly the French sample given to the US for licensed production - in storage)

"FT-18"s:
Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor, FORT KNOX, KY (2, including 1 on display)

M1917s:
Military Vehicle Technology Foundation, PORTOLA VALLEY, CA (1)
Military Museum of Southern New England, DANBURY, CT (1)
Miller Park, BLOOMINGTON, IL (1)
1st Division Museum at Catigny, WHEATON, IL (1 - US M1917 given to Canada & later recovered)
Historical Military Armor Museum, ANDERSON, IN (1)
Ropkey Armor Museum, CRAWFORDSVILLE, IN (1 - infamous Alexandria / Nitro example)
Private owner, KANSAS CITY, KS (1)
Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor, FORT KNOX, KY (1)
US Army Ordnance Museum, ABERDEEN PROVING GROUND, MD (1 - pilot M1917 - owned by Smithsonian / USMC)
Private owner, MISSOULA, MT (1)
VFW Post 2290, MANVILLE, NJ (1)
Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome, RHINEBECK, NY (1)
West Point Museum, WEST POINT, NY (1)
Pennsylvania Military Museum, BOALSBURG, PA (1)
American Armored Foundation (AAF) Tank Museum, DANVILLE, VA (1)
Virginia War Museum, NEWPORT NEWS, VA (1)
Virginia Museum of Military Vehicles (VMMV), NOKESVILLE, VA (1)

Neil

Neil_Baumgardner · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

- MarkHolloway

So is this an FT-17? This is the picture that got my curiosity going

This one "should" be an M1917, if its the one in Wheaton, IL... For one, Hayes Otoupalik says it is, and that it was assembled from parts found in Canada in the 1990s. Which would make sense as a number of M1917s (and Mk VIII Liberty tanks) were given to Canada to start off its armored force in 1939.

Neil

the_shadock · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:45 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

- armyjunk2

No muffler on this side I believe would make this a French Renault FT17..

The muffler is missing on that tank, but you can still see the rear part of it on the side of the tank.. so this is confirmed to be an M1917.

P-O

the_shadock · Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Unknown M-1917 6-ton tank

- Neil_Baumgardner

- the_shadock

- TrevorLarkum

Also, the French version had multi-part wooden front wheels (with an obvious ring of bolts) where the US ones had one-piece metal ones.

However, the wooden parts of the wheels were sometimes replaced by metal parts (because of the wood decay). But the French wheel has a very different design compared to the US one, and even with metal sheets replacing wood ones, it can be easily identified as French.

P-O

Yeah, I didnt think you could trust the wooden vs metal wheels aspect...

Neil

Here you can see an FT-17 wheel with wood sheets :

Compared to an FT-17 wheel with metal sheets :

Compared to the M1917 wheel, really typical of the tank :

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