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TrevorLarkum · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:43 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Gulf War pics

- Dontos

The Challanger 1 is one of the famous 'Desert Rats' from WWII fame.( if I remember it correctly )

Kinda. The history and genealogy of British units can get pretty complex. The 7th Armoured Division came into being as part of the Western Desert Force in 1940, at about the time the commander's wife designed a new emblem for it, the jerboa or desert rat. Key elements were the 4th Armoured Brigade (including my compadres, 2nd Royal Tank Regiment) and 7th Armoured Brigade (similarly containing 1st Royal Tank Regiment). For Gazala in 1942 it included the Dragoon Guards and even my own regiment, 3RTR. Its makeup had changed again by the time it played a key role at El Alamein that year.

Fast forward to Iraq 1990 (and close geographically to where it first started) and - to be honest - Britain struggled to put together an armoured division worthy of the name. Instead, the 7th Armoured Brigade was deployed, now carrying the mantle of the Desert Rats. There was some continuity of constituent units, for example it contained the Dragoon Guards again, and 2RTR returned for the push in 2003.

Dontos · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Gulf War pics

- TrevorLarkum

- Dontos

The Challanger 1 is one of the famous 'Desert Rats' from WWII fame.( if I remember it correctly )

Kinda. The history and genealogy of British units can get pretty complex. The 7th Armoured Division came into being as part of the Western Desert Force in 1940, at about the time the commander's wife designed a new emblem for it, the jerboa or desert rat. Key elements were the 4th Armoured Brigade (including my compadres, 2nd Royal Tank Regiment) and 7th Armoured Brigade (similarly containing 1st Royal Tank Regiment). For Gazala in 1942 it included the Dragoon Guards and even my own regiment, 3RTR. Its makeup had changed again by the time it played a key role at El Alamein that year.

Fast forward to Iraq 1990 (and close geographically to where it first started) and - to be honest - Britain struggled to put together an armoured division worthy of the name. Instead, the 7th Armoured Brigade was deployed, now carrying the mantle of the Desert Rats. There was some continuity of constituent units, for example it contained the Dragoon Guards again, and 2RTR returned for the push in 2003.

Thanks Trevor, a worthy lineage by any stretch.

My Step-Mother's cousin, an Armor Officer in the British Army, served in the 7th Ar Bde during ODS.

Don

Joe_D · Posted: Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:46 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Gulf War pics

Since we are bringing up UK Armor,

Here are a few pictures I took with a disposable camera just prior to the ground war in 2003. Thought Trevor would like to see them.

These first two are at Range 8, Udari, In Kuwait. This was the only place to fire service DU rounds. US, UK, and Kuwaiti units fired into a large berm we made at 1000 meters to screen/zero. Only DU and Inert were allowed to be fired into the berm since all DU had to be recovered at a later date. Explosive rounds were also fired at this range to the right of the DU berm. (Getting permission to fire DU prior to war being declared was a story in itself) We used cloth targets because 1/4" plywood would set off the MPAT rounds. Notice the tanks have not been equipped with the desert kit or add on armor package. These were applied later when they returned to Camp Coyote where they were co located with the USMC.

Challenger II

Striker I believe

This picture show's a Challenger II heading back to Coyote near the Falcon North Range road.

Challenger II

I got a very informative class on the Challenger II by a UK Staff Sergeant/ Master Gunner who's name I cannot recall right now. I was quite impressed.

Joe D

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:04 am Post subject: Re: 1st Gulf War pics

Nice pics, Joe, thanks for those.

My regiment missed the first Gulf war because we had just deployed to Northern Ireland as infantry (sad to say...) and I was out before the second one. Many of my regiment's tanks went as reinforcements/spares, but my squadron had the oldest tanks and they were just cannibalised and left on blocks - very sad to see on our return from Ulster.

Don, do you know what regiment your relative was in?

Joe_D · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:20 am Post subject: Re: 1st Gulf War pics

Nothing sadder than to see a tank that you put blood, sweat and tears into sitting up on blocks or cannibalized while your gone Crying or Very sad

.

Had that happen to my old tank when we shut down a platoon for 2 years due to shortages of soldiers. Got back from a month long exercise and found her lock was cut, hatches left open, turret stripped, and filled with two feet of snow. Then was told to put her back together. We had 9 crews in the company (3 men per tank except the CO's) and had to take care of 15 tanks.

Reduction in Force during the early 90's was ugly Mad

.

Joe D

Maple_Leaf_Eh · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 517

Ditto on the disheartening feeling of hard work for nothing. Any aircraft on a post makes me cringe. Thousands of hours of careful, painstaking technical work and attention to detail, left to the elements to rot. My 1970 M38A1 Jeep gives me cause in wince periodically when I wish the last guy had been a little less cavalier, 'It's just an old Jeep.'

I had mixed feelings for the Iraqi tankers whose T72s I crawled on in Kuwait City. Good tanks with the odd personal item tucked into a corner. You could still smell their BO! But improperly governed, badly led and brazenly deployed, it was no wonder they got their collective arses kicked.

tanker2010 · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 8:48 am Post subject: Re: 1st Gulf War pics

- Maple_Leaf_Eh

I had mixed feelings for the Iraqi tankers whose T72s I crawled on in Kuwait City. Good tanks with the odd personal item tucked into a corner.

Yeah, if they could have taught them to stop hitting the the ejection button that poped the turrets off.

TrevorLarkum · Posted: Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: 1st Gulf War pics

- Joe_D

Nothing sadder than to see a tank that you put blood, sweat and tears into sitting up on blocks or cannibalized while your gone Crying or Very sad .

Had that happen to my old tank when we shut down a platoon for 2 years due to shortages of soldiers. Got back from a month long exercise and found her lock was cut, hatches left open, turret stripped, and filled with two feet of snow. Then was told to put her back together. We had 9 crews in the company (3 men per tank except the CO's) and had to take care of 15 tanks.

Reduction in Force during the early 90's was ugly Mad .

Agreed on all counts. I left soon after so I was spared the ignominy of putting the tanks back together - and at least we had good hangars in Iserlohn so snow wasn't a problem!

Re Reduction in Force, certainly within the British Army I think we have Saddam to thank that we have kept a decent tank force at all. Funny how everyone keeps claiming the end of the tank, and how it's no longer needed in times of flexible, mobile forces. But when a real shooting war starts, suddenly everyone wants to go in behind a tank.

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