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binder001 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 363

Jeff,

Nice photos of that 3ACR stuff. What you have includes the following;

M41 light tank - from the squared off fenders I think this as an original M41 ("a-zero")

M47 Medium - is there an Italian rebuild plate on the rear?

M44 SP 155mm howitzer - chassis parts from the M41 light tank

M48 (a-zero) - this one looks pretty good and has the commander's MG mount

M60 ("a-zero") - it has the later aircleaners, so it has likely gone through the rebuilding program. That's what makes the other M60 in this thread so interesting is that it looks original

A couple M59 APCs (or possibly one might be an M84 mortar carrier)

Nice bunch of stuff. Would there be a way to get a look at these when I am in your area in a couple weeks?

Gary

bsmart

Looking at the M59s one has a door in the center of th erear ramp and the other is on the side of the ramp. Would that be a clue that one is a mortar carrier? if so which one?

Joe_D

I couldn't find the M60/smoothbore tank in the motorpool where it had been.

More potential bad news,

That M60 is SN 1420, which used to sit at the 4ID museum.

And if I am not mistaken, all those other shiny, new vehicles are also from the 4ID museum. Are they getting ready to abscond with them to Carson? If so they're gonna be out of public view for a long time Sad

.

I sure hope you find SN 10.

Joe_D

The T95 enigma has given me a whole series of headaches, trying to put some order in what is pure chaos. Especially with the amount of information I have available.

Don, the Army had so many parallel projects going on at that time and a lot of strange stuff was developed. Whenever a project got terminated they salvaged what they could and applied it to other projects. The T95 ended up being the recipient of many of these, being a collection point of sorts for promising ideas needing funding. Was a good thing really, since it developed some excellent systems that all led to the improvement of current tanks and the M1. Just makes it very frustrating tracking system lineage.

I'll let you know when I come your way, I'm still hoping Jeff finds #10.

Bob,

Looks like the shiny M59 might be a Mortar carrier variant, the right rear fender looks modified to maybe carry the base plate, but it's just a guess.

binder001 · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 363

The "shiny" APC with the MG barrel in the cupola appears to be the M84 106mm mortar carrier. The Global Security site mentions that the door in the rear ramp was moved to the right side so that martar parts could be stowed on the left. So it appears that we have one M84 mortar carrier (finding another AMC has to break Jeff's heart!) and one M59 APC.

Gary B.

Kurt_Laughlin · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 577

"M41 light tank - from the squared off fenders I think this as an original M41 ("a-zero")"

KL> Not necessarily. Square fenders were installed prior to S/N 2593, M4A1s started at S/N 1419 and were produced intermittently until S/N 1803. Also, either M41s or M41A1s could have fuel injection installed, making them M41A2s or M41A3s without a fender change. Note to spotters that some tanks had the square fenders trimmed to an angles shape. "True" angled fenders have a reinforcing bead on the edge.

This would be a good one to check the inside data plate vs. outside mod plate S/N. The numerology of the M41 is still a work in progress but my guess is that this is between 1385 and 2592.

"M41 ("a-zero") . . . M48 (a-zero) . . . M60 ("a-zero")"

KL> Please Gary, don't start. Please.

KL

SFC_Jeff_Button

Here's the info and serial numbers I was able to find on the assorted vehicles.
M60 was serial 1420, (found on rear deck, upper portion only)
M48 was serial 3835, (found under right headlight, second digit was hard to read)
M47 had rear data plate with the following on it but no numbers, "OFFICINE MARCONI, CURTATONE (MANTONA),REVISIONE GENERALE"
M41 had 2323 on rear data plate with the following numbers stamped in descending order below it, 89, 91, 98, 115.
M44 SP, could find no numbers.
APC's, I didn't really look at them but did notice that both rear doors were NOT welded shut, but were chained/locked.

The 4ID Museum will only be moving vehicle that hold historic signifigance to 4ID. At least this is what I was told about 9 months ago. The museum director told me that 3rd ACR's museum was very small and could not hold everything that 4ID had currently, so a larger facility was to be built. Whether it will be or not, remains to be seen.
I do know that there IS stuff locked in the back of the storage yard that I had to squeeze through a gate to get to. Some belongs to 4ID, but some pieces such as a large early Vietnam era helo are sitting out back, (this helo look in very poor shape).
Binder, when did you plan on being in the AO? To any one wishing to come, I can talk to the 4ID director. I am on good terms with her and I'm sure she'll let us into the storage yard and possibly into some vehicles. However the 1st CAV guy seems to raise his nose to any requests. But he was sure interested in me providing any information I had on all his Shermans. More or less told me I couldn't see anything unless I shared/provided him copies of everything I had. Which I would have done anyways but it was the way he went about acting like I owed it to him that ticked me off.
Anyways, I know where alot of the stuff is around post that is not directly on the museum grounds, so I can get people to them easily. I still have to contact 4ID museum director as to the whereabouts of the "Slick 60".

Neil_Baumgardner

Yeah Jeff, Joe,
Those SNs match up to vehicles that were previously on display at the 4th ID Museum.

Jeff, I take it they are currently at a storage area? Not the same 4th ID Museum storage facility that has the following?:

M7 Priest
M60A0 SN 836
M60A3 SN 8823, RN JJ01V4
M114
M728 SN 59

With regard to 3rd ACR museum vehicles, I would expect to see any/all of the following vehicles arrive on post - maybe not all if not all 4th ID museum vehicles go to Carson & the 3rd ACR museum simply falls in on the 4th ID museum.

M4A3 Sherman / Jumbo turret
M4A3(76) Sherman
M24 Chaffee
M41 Walker Bulldog
M47 Patton
M48 Patton
M60A1
M60A3
M551 Sheridan
T-72

Neil

Doug_Kibbey

- SFC_Jeff_Button

some pieces such as a large early Vietnam era helo are sitting out back, (this helo look in very poor shape).

Hi Jeff!

Two main rotor masts (similar to a Chinook) or one on that helo?

If two, from the way you say "old", I'm wondering about a CH-21 Shawnee. If one, then maybe CH-34 "Choctaw" (which I think you'd recognize) or, less likely, a CH-37 "Mojave". I think you'd know a CH-54 "Tarhe" or "flying crane" if you saw it....you may have posted a pic of one with an M114 "pretend-slung" under it.

"Mojave's" have a strange, dual-outboard engine arrangement and very bulbous nose where the loading doors are.

Joe_D

They ought to leave them right where they are,

I'll bet in five years they'll re-flag again to who knows what. Still the same unit, just different patch.

The 4ID Museum will only be moving vehicle that hold historic signifigance to 4ID

To my knowledge none at Hood came from Carson when they moved to Hood, since they were the former 2AD museum collection. Much like the stuff at Carson wasn't 3ACR's from what I was told, but 4ID's. The exceptions are the newer acquisitions since the moves. Just a big waste of money to move them and then potentially have them locked away for a long time.

SFC_Jeff_Button

Neil, the vehicles you list at the storage facility are still there, but are outback of the building behind a locked fence. The freshly painted vehicles are out front of the building.
Doug, I believe it's a Choctaw, I'm just not real up to speed on that time periods helo's.
I agree with leaving most vehicles/displays in place. However if a certain vehicle was definitly known to have done something with a particular unit/crew, then it should move with that unit if at all possible.

Doug_Kibbey

- SFC_Jeff_Button

Doug, I believe it's a Choctaw, I'm just not real up to speed on that time periods helo's.

Jeff,
Probably a Choctaw. Army definitely operated them in that timeframe and beyond, though very few in Vietnam (...in Army service, the Marines used them there a lot, Phu Bai had been a large Marine base for these before I got there).

D.

Kurt_Laughlin · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 577

Jeff:

Did the M41A1/M41A3 have "2323" stamped twice at the top of the rear plate, or maybe 2323 and another number?

KL

SFC_Jeff_Button

Hi Kurt,
The M41 had 2323 across the top of the data plate. Then in the left column it had the following numbers, going from top to bottom; 89, 91, 98, 115. What do these mean?

Kurt_Laughlin · ***Power User*** Offline Joined: Jan 24, 2006 Posts: 577

Jeff:

We were just talking about that. Usually there are two numbers in the top block (same number repeated) but sometimes the numbers are different. In any case, one is the factory build or sequence number and the other is the Ordnance S/N. Unfortunately we can't tell which is which. I've been looking for a vehicle with differing numbers that is open so we could check the Ord S/N of the inside data plate.

The other numbers are codes for which modifications have been applied to the vehicle. There must be a master list as the numbers don't correspond to any MWOs or TBs.

www.com-central.net/in...w=previous

KL

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